Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Queen of Swords · 06-05-2004, 10:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magus55

1) Heaven contains those gems. How is that actually a reward?

You just answered your own question. Islam heaven = houris. Christian heaven = gold and precious stones.

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Yes it may be very pretty, but not really something I care about.

Don't make the mistake of assuming that all True Christians are like you. Some of them get off on the idea of a rich, gold- and gem-filled heaven.

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And of course those gems described in Revelation could be symbolically describing the array of colors and brightness eminating through Heaven.

And hell could be a symbolic place, and Jesus could be a symbolic person. Or is something only symbolic when it suits your interpretation?

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Watching people serve out their fate because they rejected God is not a reward.

Oh, you mean that in heaven, you'll be able to watch people roast in hell? Well, that makes it even more of a good deal for some of the heavenly denizens.

By the way, why do you harp upon the word "reward", a word I didn't use?

mrmoderate · 06-05-2004, 11:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Starboy

Sounds like a crock to me. The part that gave you away was the "conditioning" to turn away from god. There is no such conditioning. The idea is to create a country were there is freedom of relgion. Make a note of that. And what other religions did you study and why did you reject them?

Starboy

Well, that's because you misunderstood what I wrote. I did not state I was conditioned to not believe in God, I stated that the conditioning I was getting to believe in God is what turned me against believing.

So, if what I state sounds like a crock to you, you are calling me a liar. It is apparent that you need to read better and not be so judgemental.

lpetrich · 06-05-2004, 11:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magus55

2) How is this a reward? There are only a couple people to ever live that it would be hard to feel sorry for in Hell ( ie. Hitler, Stalin type). Watching people serve out their fate because they rejected God is not a reward.

Except that several theologians in Magus55's adopted religion have thought otherwise, as explained in this article on Hell.

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"How I shall admire, how laugh, how exalt when I behold so many proud monarchs groaning in the lower abyss of darkness . . . so many sage philosophers blushing in red hot fires with their deluded pupils." -- Tertullian, 2nd-3rd-cy. Church Father

"The elect will come forth to behold the torments of the ungodly, and at this spectacle they will not be smitten with sorrow; on the contrary, while they see the unspeakable sufferings of the ungodly, they, intoxicated with joy, will thank God for their own salvation." -- Peter Lombard, 12th-cy. theologian

"in order that nothing may be wanting to the happiness of the blessed in Heaven, a perfect view is granted them of the tortures of the damned." -- St. Thomas Aquinas, 13th-cy. great philosopher and theologian

"The sight of hell's torments will exalt the happiness of the saints forever." He also proclaimed: "Can the believing husband in Heaven be happy with his unbelieving wife in Hell? Can the believing father in Heaven be happy with his unbelieving children in Hell? Can the loving wife in Heaven be happy with her unbelieving husband in Hell? I tell you, yea! Such will be their sense of justice that it will increase rather than diminish their bliss." -- Jonathan Edwards, popular 18th-cy. clergyman

mrmoderate · 06-05-2004, 11:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Valdemar

Your mistake is that you are assuming that the Bible is true before you even start, or it would be impossible to come to this conclusion.

No, it is you that has mistakenly assumed wrongly. I started out my agenda against Judeo/Christianity by assuming the bible must have been a lying fabrication. It was my study of it and the minute historical evidence of the places of the bible along with the teachings of the stories that led me to believe that the bible tells us the truth. I don't expect everyone to understand my conclusions or feel the same way that I do but I at least give everyone else the courtesy of not making assumptions of their beliefs.

Krosis · 06-06-2004, 12:04 AM

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Originally Posted by Magus55

Why should i defend it?...<snip>

b/c.. in THIS thread you said...

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Originally Posted by Magus55

<snip>...If you claim something as a fact, you better be able to support it or you will be called on it.

-cheers

xorbie · 06-06-2004, 12:54 AM

Newton:

Huh? You don't seem to care to adress any of the points brought up in this thread.

Valdemar · 06-06-2004, 08:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrmoderate

No, it is you that has mistakenly assumed wrongly. I started out my agenda against Judeo/Christianity by assuming the bible must have been a lying fabrication. It was my study of it and the minute historical evidence of the places of the bible along with the teachings of the stories that led me to believe that the bible tells us the truth.

Along with any Tom Clancy novel.

Starboy · 06-06-2004, 09:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrmoderate

So, if what I state sounds like a crock to you, you are calling me a liar. It is apparent that you need to read better and not be so judgemental.

My bad, I misread it. So are you going to answer the last question?

Starboy

lpetrich · 06-06-2004, 12:25 PM

By comparison, Islam has a delightfully sybaritic Paradise. It has:

Lots and lots of water
Lush gardens
No extremes of temperature
Milk that does not spoil
Honey that does not crystallize
Wine that does not cause drunkenness or hangovers
Fresh fruit
Tasty bird meats to eat
Couches, rugs, pillows, fancy clothes, jewelry, ...
Lots of cute preteen servant boys
Lots of houris, those perpetually-virginal lovely ladies

Interestingly, modern technology has implemented most of the Islamic paradise; the attention paid to the last item suggests that that continues to be beyond our technology's grasp.

However, I don't know of any Muslims who claim that watching the sufferings of those sent to Hell is one of the main joys of Paradise.

mrmoderate · 06-06-2004, 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Valdemar

Along with any Tom Clancy novel.

Sorry, never read Tom Clancey

Are his books relevant?

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06-06-2004, 12:54 AM	#36
xorbie Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Champaign, IL or Boston, MA Posts: 6,360	Newton: Huh? You don't seem to care to adress any of the points brought up in this thread.

06-06-2004, 12:25 PM	#39
lpetrich Contributor Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Lebanon, OR, USA Posts: 16,829	By comparison, Islam has a delightfully sybaritic Paradise. It has: Lots and lots of water Lush gardens No extremes of temperature Milk that does not spoil Honey that does not crystallize Wine that does not cause drunkenness or hangovers Fresh fruit Tasty bird meats to eat Couches, rugs, pillows, fancy clothes, jewelry, ... Lots of cute preteen servant boys Lots of houris, those perpetually-virginal lovely ladies Interestingly, modern technology has implemented most of the Islamic paradise; the attention paid to the last item suggests that that continues to be beyond our technology's grasp. However, I don't know of any Muslims who claim that watching the sufferings of those sent to Hell is one of the main joys of Paradise.

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