Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Jamie_L · 11-04-2003, 11:40 AM

My questions were actually directed at a Historical Jesus, though I'd probably ask the exact same questions of a spiritual Jesus.

As the founder of the religion that leads me to these questions, I'd be very interested in his responses to my questions. I've gotten all kinds of answers from other real people to these questions, none of them really satisfactory, many of them conflicting. I'd be interested to hear the real story from the man himself.

More interesting questions for a historical Jesus, however, would be:

Did you really talk to God?
Did you really perform any kinds of miracles?
And if no to either or both of these questions, any idea how all that got started?

Jamie

Infidelettante · 11-04-2003, 11:48 AM

Where have you been the last two thousand years? Gone to prepare a place for your followers? You made the universe in six days, how long does it take you to build an apartment building?

You are either involved in your creation which makes you responsible, or you are not involved which makes you irresponsible. Choose one.

JT

Proxima Centauri · 11-04-2003, 11:53 AM

I'd ask Jesus why he (or his father) creates people, knowing in advance that they will end up in Hell? That is not kind, caring or loving.
Here's more about what I mean.
Here's another set of poems wondering why a loving God would insist on Jesus suffering on the cross.
Philip Kuchar also considers this idea unreasonable in the extreme. Here's what he wrote in the essayl, "Double-talk in Defense of the Dubious: God's "Respect" and "Forgiveness"
The rest of the essay is well worth reading as well.

Quote:

The second proposition, given above, is at least as incoherent as the first. The theologian says that God's decision to have Jesus rather than us executed for our sins was an example of perfect, ideal love, forgiveness, and mercy. But again the common definitions of the key words involved refute this notion. Genuine forgiveness involves giving up resentment against or the desire to punish, or a pardon, which is the releasing from further punishment. Forgiveness, then, is very far from taking the punishment out on someone else in full. If God really forgave us our sins he would have abandoned the desire to punish us. But instead the theologian teaches that Jesus paid the entire price of sin, an infinitely terrible punishment involving the death of a divine person. God says he forgives sinners, but then he proceeds to vent his wrath on someone else.

This is just as strange as the following scenario: John punches Fred in the face, Fred says "John, I forgive you," but then Fred promptly finds an appropriate substitute, like John's wife, and strikes her in the face. There is no mercy, love, or forgiveness involved here. Only a mean switching of victims, or in Christian terms the "transference of sin-debt."

I would ask Jesus to explain all these anomalies. Can Christians explain them?

Pouye · 11-04-2003, 07:20 PM

Thank you for the responses.

This is what I was hoping for, but forgive me:

I would like to apologize for my pathetic internet connection in Papua New Guinea... I will not be able to keep up very well with all you "modern" telephone line and DSL users. Basically I try and type my responses in MSWord and then look for a �window� of good telephone connectivity to post.

I would like to immediately address one thing:

HelenM said:

�My question is, how would Jesus react to your comments about 'fundies' and your attempt to gain an 'in' with people here by saying you aren't one?

Here's what I think (although you didn't ask) - I don't think Jesus would distance himself from any hypothetical subset of true believers in himself as you have done, generalizing about them labelling them and stereotyping them as 'fundies'.�

That�s a loaded question, assuming much. I am wanting to learn with you and others, and admittedly, I haven�t earned any right to air my opinions here. I did not create the �fundie� stereotype, others did. I am wise to distance myself from any stereotype, even though there might be �true believers� including in the subset. I don�t need to fear excluding them, since they will see me for who I am. Jesus distanced Himself from the Pharisees, even though Nicodemas was a both a Pharisee yet a �secret� believer in Christ.

I am a Christian, but I, too have lots of questions. I am suspicious of any Christians who claim to have everything �nailed down� (no pun intended).

----------------------------------------------------------------
From Jamie:

�Why don't I believe?
If I searched with an open heart and an honestly seeking intellect, why did I find atheism instead of God?
Am I to be held responsible for this honest mistake?
If God loves me, and belief is the road to salvation, why has he not convinced me to believe? Why did he give me a mind and spirit that would take the inputs from his creation and conclude that he does not exist?
There are numerous other questions on different topics that I would have, but these would be first and foremost on the list.

Jamie

For Jamie:
Many people saw the historical Jesus, and heard His words with their own ears. Everyone �believed� in Jesus (as in He was a real person, rather than an imaginary one), but few recognized their need for Him. It is only when a man or woman comes to the place in their life where they recognize their need for Christ that they will �put their faith� in Him. It�s very simple, really. It is like if you are single asking me, �Why have I not fallen in love with another person?� What can I say to that? If you don�t believe you can fall in love with someone, the chances are you probably will not (although you might be surprised one day!). But even if you believe it is possible to fall in love, just because you haven�t yet doesn�t mean that it is an impossibility. Even someone who has fallen in love will not be able to explain it to you.

I recognize me need for food because I get hungry. I may not so easily recognize my need for eating healthy until I�m sitting down with my doctor and she tells me I better lay off the fat or I�m going to have a heart attack soon. Most people don�t realize their need for a life boat until their ship is sinking.
When a salesman tries to sell you something, he or she will try their best to create some �felt need� or desire in you to justify their product. Christians are very guilty of many sales techniques, but even though their techniques are often faulty (and sometime downright ugly!), I am still convinced that the need for Jesus is real because I believe these words of Jesus in Matthew 5 (NLT):

�God blesses those who realize their need for him,
for the Kingdom of Heaven is given to them.
God blesses those who mourn,
for they will be comforted.
God blesses those who are gentle and lowly,
for the whole earth will belong to them.
God blesses those who are hungry and thirsty for justice,
for they will receive it in full.
God blesses those who are merciful,
for they will be shown mercy.
God blesses those whose hearts are pure,
for they will see God.
God blesses those who work for peace,
for they will be called the children of God.
God blesses those who are persecuted because they live for God,
for the Kingdom of Heaven is theirs...�

It is only when you realize you have a need for Christ (which is the essence of humility) that you can have a relationship with Him.
------------------------------------------------------------
From Starboy: What is a holy ghost?
For Starboy: A ghost with holes in it!
-----------------------------------------------------------
From McNamara:
�Jesus, did they have weed in ancient Judea? That would have been cool.

Seriously though, what would Jesus say about the hard-core fundamentalists? For example, Fred Phelps? I doubt it would be complimentary; perhaps something along the lines of: "Congratulations. You've memorized every word in the Bible. Unfortunately, you've missed the entire message." -- Jesus�
For McNamara:
Well, they had rope...

I know just what Jesus will say to Fred Phelps; and to you and I, McNamara:
When I was hungry, did you feed me? When I was thirsty did you give me something to drink? When I was sick did you come and visit me? When I was hurting did you help me out? When I called you because my car broke down and I needed a ride to work, did you pick me up even though it was my house was miles out of the way? When I got drunk and fell on my face in the parking lot did you take me home even though I smelled like puke and got blood on your seat? When I made you look bad in front of your friends because I was insecure and felt like I needed to put you down to lift myself up, did you overlook my unfair jabs and forgive me and accept me anyway, faults and all?
(See Matthew 25:37)
-----------------------------------------------
For Hugo: Absolutely!
-----------------------------------------------
From Steven T-B who asked what Jesus would think about:

1. Gene Robinson?
2. About people getting divorced; and what would he say about them getting re-married.
2. About the death penalty?
3. About abortion, as carried out on a woman made pregnant during a rape, or is most likely to die in childbirth, or is suffering severe depression which giving birth is expected to make a great deal worse?
4. About stem cell research?
5. About GM foods?
6. About the US role in Iraq and the war to topple Saddam?
7. About statues of himself and his mother in churches?
8. Is the Pope infallible?
9. Do you go to Heaven if you believe in him and ask him to forgive your sins? Or do you go to Heaven if you've been a really good person and brought peace to millions of people? Or do you go to Heaven if God already decided you would, regardless of how you've behaved.?
10. Is Mother Theresa in Heaven?
11. Did Mary Tudor, who burnt all those Protestant heretics, go to Heaven, for doing the will of the Lord, or to Hell for getting it totally wrong?
12. Is it really as hard for a rich person to get into Heaven as it is for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle?�

For Steven T-B:

First off, Jesus might say, �Are these your best questions?�

1. Who is Gene Robinson?
2. I already told you: Matthew 5:31
3. Jesus would say, �I didn�t particularly care for it, since I was innocent� but in general,
�...authorities do not frighten people who are doing right, but they frighten those who do wrong. So do what they say, and you will get along well ...But if you are doing something wrong, of course you should be afraid, for you will be punished. The authorities are established by God for that very purpose, to punish those who do wrong.� Romans 13:3-
4. Adoption is always better than killing a baby, don�t you think? If it truly is a choice between a mother�s life and her baby, she (and her other half) should make the choice if you want to truly be �pro-choice� Usually the best choice is to take the babies life rather than the mother�s. It depends...
5. Jesus wouldn�t have a problem with eating them...
6. Wargames!
7. �Do not worship any other gods besides me. Do not make idols of any kind, whether in the shape of birds or animals or fish. You must never worship or bow down to them...� Exodus 20
8. �Don't ever let anyone call you �Rabbi,� for you have only one teacher, and all of you are on the same level as brothers and sisters. And don't address anyone here on earth as �Father,� for only God in heaven is your spiritual Father.�
9. �God blesses those who realize their need for him, for the Kingdom of Heaven is given to them.�
10. DITTO -- but this would need further discussion in a thread of it�s own...
11. That�s what I said, isn�t it? But that�s not ALL I said... I said it is possible with God.
-----------------------------------------------

It looks like to me I need to start a �Problem of Pain� thread. I�m sure there has been many of them on these boards. I, too, have questions similar to all of you... although I will warn you that I believe this life on earth is not the end of my life, nor the end of yours...

Rock

Ps. Sorry, I didn�t get through the questions, but they are helpful for me to see. It is impossible for me to respond to all of them (not that I CAN respond well to them anyway), but I am not at all offended by any of these questions. To put it simply, I often ask them myself!

Pouye · 11-05-2003, 12:43 AM

*blushing*

I guess I can't even count... I left out #12 in my response to Stephen T-B. # 11 is supposed to say, "DITTO", and 12 is actuall number # 11.

I can't edit my post anymore, so you get confusing corrections like this instead. Sorry 'bout that, ya'll.

Rock

Aquila ka Hecate · 11-05-2003, 01:09 AM

POuye:

I'm really, really waiting to hear jesus answer Yahzi's questions.
Those are the ones I would most like to ask, too.

Terri

Bold · 11-05-2003, 02:51 AM

I'd like to ask why he didn't write down any of his teaching himself, leaving it to be (mis) interpreted by mortals. Why in particular the religion in his name was effectively defined by Saul and not by himself. Whether he agrees that his followers should be paying more attention to Saul's teaching than to his.

I'd like to ask exactly how and why he interfered in the canonisation of scripture to ensure that the right scripture was canonised, and whether there is anything at all to indicate to the modern person which scriptural account of him, biblical, gnostic, koranic, ... if any is accurate. Also, therefore why he didn't interfere in the process of canonisation of scripture undertaken by all the 'wrong' religions.

I'd like to ask you to explain the similarities between the account of his birth and that of Mithras.

Does he agree with Exodus 21:22 that the loss of a fetus is not a serious offence, even when resulting from a violent assault, and is only worth of a fine?

Does he agree with Exodus 20:12 or with Luke 14:26 on the question of honouring one's parents?

Does he maintain the biblical ban on lending money at interest, and would he today, therefore, recommend the use of an islamic bank?

What does he think about the likeness used for him being white?

If civil authorities have been appointed by God, does this mean that we should always vote for incumbents?

Bold · 11-05-2003, 03:00 AM

Sorry, one more. I have to know the answer to this one:

If you (Jesus) are not dead and gone now, in what sense was your death on the cross any kind of sacrifice? Sure it must have hurt a bit, but it doesn't seem a big deal.

braces_for_impact · 11-05-2003, 03:12 AM

Jesus, you, the father and the holy spirit are supposed to be one in the same.

Why did you demand a sacrifice of yourself to appease yourself for the very rules you created in the first place?

How exactly does the death of an animal, a person, or a god "erase" sin?

If you cannot abide by the presence of evil are you really all powerful?

Why the whole hell thing?

Stephen T-B · 11-05-2003, 03:40 AM

This won�t take a moment: I�d just like to thank Pouye for attending to my questions.

The reason I asked them is because they split Christians every which way; I expect there will be Christian lurkers who saw his answers and shuddered, and I expect if he posted them in a Christian forum they would give rise to flame wars the like of which we never see here at Infidels.
Some Christians will think as Pouye does, but an awful lot won�t.
My last question: what does Jesus make of that?

(Gene Robertson, incidentally, is the active homosexual who has been made a bishop by the Episcopalians.)

11-04-2003, 07:20 PM	#14
Pouye Regular Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Papua New Guinea Posts: 251	Some selective thoughts.... Thank you for the responses. This is what I was hoping for, but forgive me: I would like to apologize for my pathetic internet connection in Papua New Guinea... I will not be able to keep up very well with all you "modern" telephone line and DSL users. Basically I try and type my responses in MSWord and then look for a �window� of good telephone connectivity to post. I would like to immediately address one thing: HelenM said: �My question is, how would Jesus react to your comments about 'fundies' and your attempt to gain an 'in' with people here by saying you aren't one? Here's what I think (although you didn't ask) - I don't think Jesus would distance himself from any hypothetical subset of true believers in himself as you have done, generalizing about them labelling them and stereotyping them as 'fundies'.� That�s a loaded question, assuming much. I am wanting to learn with you and others, and admittedly, I haven�t earned any right to air my opinions here. I did not create the �fundie� stereotype, others did. I am wise to distance myself from any stereotype, even though there might be �true believers� including in the subset. I don�t need to fear excluding them, since they will see me for who I am. Jesus distanced Himself from the Pharisees, even though Nicodemas was a both a Pharisee yet a �secret� believer in Christ. I am a Christian, but I, too have lots of questions. I am suspicious of any Christians who claim to have everything �nailed down� (no pun intended). ---------------------------------------------------------------- From Jamie: �Why don't I believe? If I searched with an open heart and an honestly seeking intellect, why did I find atheism instead of God? Am I to be held responsible for this honest mistake? If God loves me, and belief is the road to salvation, why has he not convinced me to believe? Why did he give me a mind and spirit that would take the inputs from his creation and conclude that he does not exist? There are numerous other questions on different topics that I would have, but these would be first and foremost on the list. Jamie For Jamie: Many people saw the historical Jesus, and heard His words with their own ears. Everyone �believed� in Jesus (as in He was a real person, rather than an imaginary one), but few recognized their need for Him. It is only when a man or woman comes to the place in their life where they recognize their need for Christ that they will �put their faith� in Him. It�s very simple, really. It is like if you are single asking me, �Why have I not fallen in love with another person?� What can I say to that? If you don�t believe you can fall in love with someone, the chances are you probably will not (although you might be surprised one day!). But even if you believe it is possible to fall in love, just because you haven�t yet doesn�t mean that it is an impossibility. Even someone who has fallen in love will not be able to explain it to you. I recognize me need for food because I get hungry. I may not so easily recognize my need for eating healthy until I�m sitting down with my doctor and she tells me I better lay off the fat or I�m going to have a heart attack soon. Most people don�t realize their need for a life boat until their ship is sinking. When a salesman tries to sell you something, he or she will try their best to create some �felt need� or desire in you to justify their product. Christians are very guilty of many sales techniques, but even though their techniques are often faulty (and sometime downright ugly!), I am still convinced that the need for Jesus is real because I believe these words of Jesus in Matthew 5 (NLT): �God blesses those who realize their need for him, for the Kingdom of Heaven is given to them. God blesses those who mourn, for they will be comforted. God blesses those who are gentle and lowly, for the whole earth will belong to them. God blesses those who are hungry and thirsty for justice, for they will receive it in full. God blesses those who are merciful, for they will be shown mercy. God blesses those whose hearts are pure, for they will see God. God blesses those who work for peace, for they will be called the children of God. God blesses those who are persecuted because they live for God, for the Kingdom of Heaven is theirs...� It is only when you realize you have a need for Christ (which is the essence of humility) that you can have a relationship with Him. ------------------------------------------------------------ From Starboy: What is a holy ghost? For Starboy: A ghost with holes in it! ----------------------------------------------------------- From McNamara: �Jesus, did they have weed in ancient Judea? That would have been cool. Seriously though, what would Jesus say about the hard-core fundamentalists? For example, Fred Phelps? I doubt it would be complimentary; perhaps something along the lines of: "Congratulations. You've memorized every word in the Bible. Unfortunately, you've missed the entire message." -- Jesus� For McNamara: Well, they had rope... I know just what Jesus will say to Fred Phelps; and to you and I, McNamara: When I was hungry, did you feed me? When I was thirsty did you give me something to drink? When I was sick did you come and visit me? When I was hurting did you help me out? When I called you because my car broke down and I needed a ride to work, did you pick me up even though it was my house was miles out of the way? When I got drunk and fell on my face in the parking lot did you take me home even though I smelled like puke and got blood on your seat? When I made you look bad in front of your friends because I was insecure and felt like I needed to put you down to lift myself up, did you overlook my unfair jabs and forgive me and accept me anyway, faults and all? (See Matthew 25:37) ----------------------------------------------- For Hugo: Absolutely! ----------------------------------------------- From Steven T-B who asked what Jesus would think about: 1. Gene Robinson? 2. About people getting divorced; and what would he say about them getting re-married. 2. About the death penalty? 3. About abortion, as carried out on a woman made pregnant during a rape, or is most likely to die in childbirth, or is suffering severe depression which giving birth is expected to make a great deal worse? 4. About stem cell research? 5. About GM foods? 6. About the US role in Iraq and the war to topple Saddam? 7. About statues of himself and his mother in churches? 8. Is the Pope infallible? 9. Do you go to Heaven if you believe in him and ask him to forgive your sins? Or do you go to Heaven if you've been a really good person and brought peace to millions of people? Or do you go to Heaven if God already decided you would, regardless of how you've behaved.? 10. Is Mother Theresa in Heaven? 11. Did Mary Tudor, who burnt all those Protestant heretics, go to Heaven, for doing the will of the Lord, or to Hell for getting it totally wrong? 12. Is it really as hard for a rich person to get into Heaven as it is for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle?� For Steven T-B: First off, Jesus might say, �Are these your best questions?� 1. Who is Gene Robinson? 2. I already told you: Matthew 5:31 3. Jesus would say, �I didn�t particularly care for it, since I was innocent� but in general, �...authorities do not frighten people who are doing right, but they frighten those who do wrong. So do what they say, and you will get along well ...But if you are doing something wrong, of course you should be afraid, for you will be punished. The authorities are established by God for that very purpose, to punish those who do wrong.� Romans 13:3- 4. Adoption is always better than killing a baby, don�t you think? If it truly is a choice between a mother�s life and her baby, she (and her other half) should make the choice if you want to truly be �pro-choice� Usually the best choice is to take the babies life rather than the mother�s. It depends... 5. Jesus wouldn�t have a problem with eating them... 6. Wargames! 7. �Do not worship any other gods besides me. Do not make idols of any kind, whether in the shape of birds or animals or fish. You must never worship or bow down to them...� Exodus 20 8. �Don't ever let anyone call you �Rabbi,� for you have only one teacher, and all of you are on the same level as brothers and sisters. And don't address anyone here on earth as �Father,� for only God in heaven is your spiritual Father.� 9. �God blesses those who realize their need for him, for the Kingdom of Heaven is given to them.� 10. DITTO -- but this would need further discussion in a thread of it�s own... 11. That�s what I said, isn�t it? But that�s not ALL I said... I said it is possible with God. ----------------------------------------------- It looks like to me I need to start a �Problem of Pain� thread. I�m sure there has been many of them on these boards. I, too, have questions similar to all of you... although I will warn you that I believe this life on earth is not the end of my life, nor the end of yours... Rock Ps. Sorry, I didn�t get through the questions, but they are helpful for me to see. It is impossible for me to respond to all of them (not that I CAN respond well to them anyway), but I am not at all offended by any of these questions. To put it simply, I often ask them myself!

11-05-2003, 12:43 AM	#15
Pouye Regular Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Papua New Guinea Posts: 251	Re: Some selective thoughts.... blushing I guess I can't even count... I left out #12 in my response to Stephen T-B. # 11 is supposed to say, "DITTO", and 12 is actuall number # 11. I can't edit my post anymore, so you get confusing corrections like this instead. Sorry 'bout that, ya'll. Rock

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11-04-2003, 11:40 AM	#11
Jamie_L Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: U.S. Posts: 2,565	My questions were actually directed at a Historical Jesus, though I'd probably ask the exact same questions of a spiritual Jesus. As the founder of the religion that leads me to these questions, I'd be very interested in his responses to my questions. I've gotten all kinds of answers from other real people to these questions, none of them really satisfactory, many of them conflicting. I'd be interested to hear the real story from the man himself. More interesting questions for a historical Jesus, however, would be: Did you really talk to God? Did you really perform any kinds of miracles? And if no to either or both of these questions, any idea how all that got started? Jamie

11-04-2003, 11:48 AM	#12
Infidelettante Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: The Deep South Posts: 889	Where have you been the last two thousand years? Gone to prepare a place for your followers? You made the universe in six days, how long does it take you to build an apartment building? You are either involved in your creation which makes you responsible, or you are not involved which makes you irresponsible. Choose one. JT

11-05-2003, 01:09 AM	#16
Aquila ka Hecate Regular Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Luna City Posts: 379	POuye: I'm really, really waiting to hear jesus answer Yahzi's questions. Those are the ones I would most like to ask, too. Terri

11-05-2003, 02:51 AM	#17
Bold Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Sheffield, UK Posts: 536	I'd like to ask why he didn't write down any of his teaching himself, leaving it to be (mis) interpreted by mortals. Why in particular the religion in his name was effectively defined by Saul and not by himself. Whether he agrees that his followers should be paying more attention to Saul's teaching than to his. I'd like to ask exactly how and why he interfered in the canonisation of scripture to ensure that the right scripture was canonised, and whether there is anything at all to indicate to the modern person which scriptural account of him, biblical, gnostic, koranic, ... if any is accurate. Also, therefore why he didn't interfere in the process of canonisation of scripture undertaken by all the 'wrong' religions. I'd like to ask you to explain the similarities between the account of his birth and that of Mithras. Does he agree with Exodus 21:22 that the loss of a fetus is not a serious offence, even when resulting from a violent assault, and is only worth of a fine? Does he agree with Exodus 20:12 or with Luke 14:26 on the question of honouring one's parents? Does he maintain the biblical ban on lending money at interest, and would he today, therefore, recommend the use of an islamic bank? What does he think about the likeness used for him being white? If civil authorities have been appointed by God, does this mean that we should always vote for incumbents?

11-05-2003, 03:00 AM	#18
Bold Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Sheffield, UK Posts: 536	Sorry, one more. I have to know the answer to this one: If you (Jesus) are not dead and gone now, in what sense was your death on the cross any kind of sacrifice? Sure it must have hurt a bit, but it doesn't seem a big deal.

11-05-2003, 03:12 AM	#19
braces_for_impact Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: In a nondescript, black helicopter. Posts: 6,637	Jesus, you, the father and the holy spirit are supposed to be one in the same. Why did you demand a sacrifice of yourself to appease yourself for the very rules you created in the first place? How exactly does the death of an animal, a person, or a god "erase" sin? If you cannot abide by the presence of evil are you really all powerful? Why the whole hell thing?

11-05-2003, 03:40 AM	#20
Stephen T-B Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Leeds, UK Posts: 5,878	This won�t take a moment: I�d just like to thank Pouye for attending to my questions. The reason I asked them is because they split Christians every which way; I expect there will be Christian lurkers who saw his answers and shuddered, and I expect if he posted them in a Christian forum they would give rise to flame wars the like of which we never see here at Infidels. Some Christians will think as Pouye does, but an awful lot won�t. My last question: what does Jesus make of that? (Gene Robertson, incidentally, is the active homosexual who has been made a bishop by the Episcopalians.)

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