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TedM · 06-30-2010, 09:31 AM

for the time just preceding Christianity? Can anyone here recommend any? thanks, ted

Loomis · 06-30-2010, 10:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TedM

for the time just preceding Christianity? Can anyone here recommend any? thanks, ted

Here:

http://www.livius.org/men-mh/messiah....html#overview

TedM · 06-30-2010, 10:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loomis

Quote:

Originally Posted by TedM

for the time just preceding Christianity? Can anyone here recommend any? thanks, ted

Here:

http://www.livius.org/men-mh/messiah....html#overview

Thanks. I remember that from a while ago. It looks like a good start. Do you or anyone else have an opinion as to how accurate/complete it is? Seems I remember some were critical of it on here in the past..

Toto · 06-30-2010, 11:13 AM

spin's recommnedations from the other thread:

* J.J. Collins The Scepter and the Star (or via: amazon.co.uk) (Anchor 1995)

* J.J. Collins, Apocalypticism in the DSS (or via: amazon.co.uk) (Routledge 1997). Chapter 5, "Messianic Expectation".

* Evans & Flint (eds), Eschatology, Messianism, and the DSS (or via: amazon.co.uk) (Brill 1997).

show_no_mercy · 06-30-2010, 01:01 PM

This is from my [soon to be] website about the Messainism at Qumran that I compiled from various sources:

Quote:

The Messainic Scrolls include:

4Q175 (or 4QTest), also known as The Testimonia, is one of the Dead Sea Scrolls and was found in Cave 4 at Qumran in the West Bank. Only one sheet long, 4Q175 is a collection of scriptural quotations seemingly connected to a messianic figure. The manuscript was written in Hasmonean script of the early first century BCE and was edited by John Marco Allegro.

The Testimonia is a short document containing five Biblical quotations arranged in four sections concerning God's activities at the end-time. Only the last section is followed by an interpretation. The first three sections refer to future blessings which will come from three figures, a prophet similar to Moses, a messianic figure and a priestly teacher.

The first section consists of two texts from Deuteronomy and refers to the prophet-figure who is like Moses (Deuteronomy 5:28-29; 18:18-19). The second section is an extract from a prophecy of Balaam about the Messiah-figure, who is similar to David (Numbers 24:15-17). This prophecy predicts "A star shall come out of Jacob and a sceptre shall arise out of Israel; he shall crush the temples of Moab and destroy all the children of Sheth."[Simon Bar-Kokhba, the Jewish Messiah of 132 CE literally means "Simon son of the star"] The third section is a blessing of the Levites, and of the Priest-Messiah who will be a teacher like Levi (Deuteronomy 33:8-11). The last section begins with a verse from Joshua (6:26), which is then expounded by means of a quotation from the Psalms of Joshua (see 4Q379). These verses show that the Qumran community was interested in the messianic prophecies found in the Tanakh.

4Q252 Column V, formerly known as Patriarchal Blessing, covers Joseph's blessing of Judah. It contains a quotation from Jeremiah 33:17. The author links this blessing to Messianic expectation and the "covenant of royalty" given to David. The commentary serves dually as anti Hasmonaean polemic and affirmation of the Qumran community's self understanding as spiritual descendants of David.

The Rule of the Blessing (1QSb) is a very fragmentary text once thought to be part of the Dead Sea Scrolls book known as the Community Rule. It is added as one of two appendices (including the equally eschatological Rule of the Congregation) following the book of the Community Rule, on one of the first seven scrolls discovered at the Qumran site. The Rule of the Blessing includes three benedictions for use during the eschaton: one for the general assembly of the eschatological Tribe of Israel, which describes a sort of “living water” bringing them into a new covenant with God, one concerning the Sons of Zadok, priests chosen by God who will act “like angels” and lead Israel after the War. The third prayer is that for the messianic meal, to bless the “Prince,” or Davidic messiah, who has come to deliver Israel. These blessings are meant to praise the sect who inhabited Qumran and its leaders, for the ultimate perfection had dawned, and they had been its harbingers. Similar prayers are found elsewhere in the scrolls, and some believe that this particular manuscript many be a collection of prayers for general, daily use.

1QSa (The Rule of the Congregation) The scroll [says] that in the “last days” there will be a great war with the Gentiles, and the whole of Israel will join with the Yahad (an eschatological community) to fight. The Rule of the Congregation then outlines in several sections the rules for governing the eschatological sect, stages of life for members of the sect and the duties expected of them at each age, those disqualified from service, duties for members of the Tribe of Levi, acts of the council of the community, a description of a man (or men) described as “the Messiah of Aaron and of David” entering, and the eschatological banquet that will follow to celebrate his arrival. The Rule of the Congregation concerns itself largely with the operations of the sect during these “end-times,” and the functions and purity prerequisites demanded of the sect during the messianic assembly (banquet).

The War of the Messaiah is a series of Dead Sea scroll fragments describing the conclusion of a battle led by the Leader of the Congregation. The fragments that make up this document include 4Q285, also known as The Pierced/Piercing Messiah Text, and 11Q14 with which it was found to coincide. It is possible that it also represents the conclusion of the War Scroll.

This six-line fragment, commonly referred to as the "Pierced Messiah" text, is written in a Herodian script of the first half of the 1st Century and refers to a Messiah from the Branch of David, to a judgement, and to a killing. Hebrew is comprised primarily of consonants; vowels must be supplied by the reader. The appropriate vowels depend on the context. Thus, the text (line 4) may be translated as "and the Prince of the Congregation, the Branch of David, will kill him," or alternately read as "and they killed the Prince." Because of the second reading, the text was dubbed the "Pierced Messiah." The traditional transcription and translation support the "killing Messiah" interpretation, alluding to a triumphant Messiah (Isaiah 11:4).

DCHindley · 06-30-2010, 01:03 PM

Try vol 2 of the revised edition of Emil Schuerer's History of the Jewish People in the Age of Jesus Christ (1979), chapter 29 "Messianism" (pp. 488-554). This is currently out of print and copies are expensive, so I'd recommend you find a copy at the county library.

I Relation to Earlier Messianic Hope
II Historical Survey
III Systematic Presentation
Appendix A The Suffering Messiah
Appendix B The Qumran Messiahs and Messianism

DCH (on break, boss of me)

Quote:

Originally Posted by TedM

for the time just preceding Christianity? Can anyone here recommend any? thanks, ted

TedM · 06-30-2010, 08:15 PM

Thanks to all for the info and sources.

mountainman · 06-30-2010, 10:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TedM

for the time just preceding Christianity? Can anyone here recommend any? thanks, ted

See Constantine's Oration at Antioch and the Messiah expectations recorded in at least two Roman poets and the Sybil ----- Cicero (106-43 BCE) and Virgil (70-19 BCE). Robin Lane Fox's Pagans and Christians p.651

DCHindley · 07-03-2010, 09:46 AM

Loomis,

That was an excellent source. Thank you!

DCH (see, I'm not all bad)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loomis

Quote:

Originally Posted by TedM

for the time just preceding Christianity? Can anyone here recommend any? thanks, ted

Here:

http://www.livius.org/men-mh/messiah....html#overview

spin · 07-03-2010, 10:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DCHindley

That was an excellent source. Thank you!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loomis

http://www.livius.org/men-mh/messiah....html#overview

And I just hacked it apart for TedM over some rot about a "sage messiah", when it's really a royal messiah with good manners.

spin

06-30-2010, 09:31 AM	#1
TedM Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: USA, Missouri Posts: 3,070	Looking for good article or book on Messiah expectations for the time just preceding Christianity? Can anyone here recommend any? thanks, ted

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06-30-2010, 11:13 AM	#4
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	spin's recommnedations from the other thread: * J.J. Collins The Scepter and the Star (or via: amazon.co.uk) (Anchor 1995) * J.J. Collins, Apocalypticism in the DSS (or via: amazon.co.uk) (Routledge 1997). Chapter 5, "Messianic Expectation". * Evans & Flint (eds), Eschatology, Messianism, and the DSS (or via: amazon.co.uk) (Brill 1997).

06-30-2010, 08:15 PM	#7
TedM Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: USA, Missouri Posts: 3,070	Thanks to all for the info and sources.

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