Lógos Sokratikós

Up to now, nearly all mental processes have been localized in the brain, either in "particular brain regions" or in greater areas called "systems", e.g. the lymbic system.

"Nearly", meaning "Surprise! This is not theology! This is science, we don't boast we know the answers beforehand!"

What has not been traced as of now, we do not call "mental", we call: "Not found yet".

I remember in philosophy courses in college we used to read about DesCartes (a dualist, maybe the big daddy of modern dualists) stating that the soul connects with the body via the pineal gland. It was one of the parts that his day's science didn't know what was for. So I guess he thought it was very convenient to state such a thing. That is the resort of modern day dualists and creationists: look for a region of existence where science has not set foot yet, and anchor their outrageous and millenary assumptions to swindle laymen into thinking they got a point.

Mental is not, definitely not an equivalent of "not explainable by somatic processes". Actually, with scanners, you can see people's thoughts, their content (in their bioelectric dimensions). We cannot see what you think ("yet", maybe?), but mental processes are continuous with somatic, neurological processes. I did not say "explainable by", because that would be reductionism. Your ideas, hopes and longings are explainable via your personal history, equivalently, by your social experience. In part, at least.

We must make clear cut separation between "somatic structures" and "somatic processes", if not we will go on endlessly with a lame debate on Mind vs Brain.

T.O.M.

UnderStudy

The idea tha it is more appopriate to use the term selective in the context because the collective is too vast a term to use seeing you show a marked inability to distinguish mind from brain despite all the valid arguments and evidence brought foward.

UnderStudy

No I do not see what you mean. Sophie's argument was based on absurd vs valid, in the information context perspective. The point was valid except if the argument stems from or proceeds from the absurd

UnderStudy

Shall you begin...

Lógos Sokratikós

Easy!

Somatic structures: Instance: the central nervous system.
Somatic processes: Instance: the phenomena occuring in the CNS.

Question:
How will this save time and energy?

Answer:
Mind, brain, etc are instances of primitive language inherited from primitive peoples.
"Mind" comes from Latin mens (mens/mentis/mentem/mente), meaning chin, the part of your head you grabbed with your hand when you're a Roman using your bean to make sense of what you're experinecing. Mind means chin, goddammit!
So, please argue using modern terminology for the sake of sanity.

Now:
What an individual does (autonomous, motor or verbal behavior) can be traced to processes occuring in the CNS. For example, the cones and rods in your eyes are excited by photons over a certain threshold. This produces a biochemical relay race on rows of neurons going towards the optic chiasm, were they are re-routed towards the visual cortex, occipital pole. There the stimuli are reorganized, passed to other routes where patterns are recognized, to other routes where the stimuli are compared to memories stored biochemically and evoked bioelectrically (whew!). Then: You remember past dogs... you remember "Spot"... you remember dogs emptying their bowels... you remember Spot pooing your lawn all summer long... you remember all the fun you had picking up Spot's faeces all summer long... you remember Spot is not even yours...... "SPOOOOOOOOOOOOT you piece of [...you remember faeces...]!!!!!!!" ... The process of recognition produces patterns of excitement all over your brain, particularly interesting, the excitement in your limbic system (where your emotions are subconsciously processed) which are recognized by your frontal lobes, where conscious decisions are processed.
Your limbic system produces excitement of very specific nature back in the cortex again, notably your prefrontal lobes, where you decide you give a f^ck about your neighbor and you're gonna kill that goddam dog (and you also don't give a f^ck about using "goddam" being an atheist, thanks to your limbic system).

No extraterrestial entities, no ectoplasm, no spooks, etc, just somatic processes occurring in somatic structures, by somatic structures and external simuli, physical stimuli.

CNS processes related to behavior, made easy, at:

http://www.tutrin.com/
http://faculty.washington.edu/chudler/moral.html


Mind is just a frickin' word for cryin' out loud! Stick to modern terminology! :banghead:

Lógos Sokratikós

Freud was an excellent observer of human behavior. For me, a genius. His concept of defense mechanisms are accepted still today, even by behaviorists such as Arthur Staats.

If you read his discriptions of normal and abnormal behavior, you cannot avoid being just struck with awe at how valid, detailed and deep in his understanding.

In his discriptions, he is second to none. It is in the causal factors where he is disputed, especially regarding the universality of the Oedipus complex and his method of treatment, although it is the historical basis of todays psychotherapy. :notworthy

UnderStudy

Are you trying to make me laugh or cry. What the fuck is phenomena occuring in the CNS? Don't tell me you are well on your way to being a mystic

To argue against your request for total modern terminology by proposing the growth of the familiar rather than stumbling around still dark corridors is as valid a request as your seeming distaste for philosophical parameters. :wave:

Lógos Sokratikós

On demand, my philosophical parameters:

I consider myself logical positivist as much as a philosophical layman could be. My personal rule: Let science show the way, then derive the logical consequences.

Regarding the problem of mind, I see it black and white. Either your idea of it is kinda like watching "Ghost" or "Ghostbusters", where it's some kind of spook living in your penthouse, or you see it like a neuroscientist would: mind is mental processing controlled by specific sites in your brain.

You can also see it like a psychologist: Mind is what you acquire through learning during your life span, a cumulus of learning. Who learns? An individual organism which possesses an incredibly complex CNS capable of great adaptation (and maladaptation) inside specific cultural and social subsystems. You speak English because you live and grew up among English-speakers. You speak Arabic and are a muslim because you were raised among Arabic-speaking muslims in Yemen, for example, and given you were born with a healthy CNS and were fed and loved, punished, awarded, etc.

Lógos Sokratikós

The human organism (like in the rest of the animal kingdom) is wired so that specific stimuli produce specific responses on different levels. A response of fear, for example, has physiological responses (sweating of hands and feet, for example), motor responses (fleeing, crying, moaning), cognitive responses (thoughts and emotions), verbal ("Oh, crap, I'm gonna get it this time!").

When you see a horror movie late at night (represented situations and images on a TV or theatre screen), they will tend to reproduce responses later on (represented situations and images as cognitive responses of a distressful kind, as or more distressful than the movie itself, as they relate to other cognitive items... You got yourself a nightmare!). That is the mind, private (or "covert" so called to distinguish them form "public", what others can see) processes that are required for complex adaptation in an ever-changing environment. Our brains have developed throughout millions of years of natural selection to be larger and larger, as to create immense amounts of synaptic connections and store immense amounts of memory items, so the responses we have are manifold and "intelligent" (creative, i.e. building new, complex behaviors out of older behaviors already tested and stored).

UnderStudy

Quite, you are describing the soul, all the specific sites, from which your being has conscious response or activated action. However I am describing the mind, which at any specific instant, is a collection set of some particular sites in the brain. Higher motive does have a part of this solution set.