Robert Tulip

Just because people no longer believe in magical folk tales as literal truth, those stories do not 'disappear'.

The Virgin Mary and Jesus memes will evolve into new forms.

Roman Catholicism is fairly robust, but its anti-scientific stances are not sustainable.

Chili

I am not really a religionist myself, but I do remember those damn nuns at kindergarden who took away my freedom and [finally] got me to obey.

And no, Catholicism would never be without the BVM. In fact she is the seat of wisdom and we have a whole litany on her and Jesus is unheard of in their prayer. We do hail Mary's by the hour, at least some of us do, which is just a contemplation exercise that appeals to females most, I think.

You have to understand here that they are heaven on earth people and the first death is what Jesus is all about, who died on the cross that itself was the sum total of our sins, which so is just a mind journey and no more. It is just a natural event that brings a 'yellow' kind of ripeness about that Erickson was looking for around the world and could not find any of it in Christianity itself, and I can see why that is myself.

Not sure if you need to know but I am a farmer, and did my BA, General Arts with a major in philosohy as a mature student, and those were also the best years of my life.

I am not a Saint person either, but have 3 patron saints in my name because my mother probably thought I needed them. So really, I do not know much about Catholicism itself, but look at what they do and try to read it like a poem of life itself.

And no, I have no problem with protestants. Most of my friends here are Mennonites who split 2 times to form 3 small rural congregations, while some of them left to find their own chruch 'back home' someplace. Just different and that kind of perked my curiosity to know. And yes, we talk alot and I know them well. Nice people and good neighbors too.

Chili

Catholicism is driven by metaphysics and its strongholds will always be the backbone of society that itself will perish on account of its own counter relvolutions, such as here now with our gender-equal society that is based on scientific evidence.

The opposites between the BVM and Jesus meme are part of all mythologies wherein one is much more violent than the other, and this always by degree of RNA entrenchment, naturally, for which then foresight is needed to pave the way the Rome, as a good Catholic would say, of course he would.

mountainman

Christianity as a philosophical system has borrowed its fundamental concepts from Platonism. Since the Age of Enlightenment the philosophical system of Christianity has continually lost ground century after century to the inter-disciplinary study of philosophical systems.

Today Christianity (as in the past) is an industry and like all commercial industries it will survive as long as it is able. So long as there are tenure and tax exemptions available for the Jesus industry, it will creep and eke along. But the days of glory, mass conversions and quick prophets are gone.

If some ancient historical evidence turned up tomorrow that cast serious doubt on the historical existence of Jesus to the extent that the Jesus industry could not operate as a Jesus industry, the Jesus industry would revert to advertising itself by emphasising the historical existence of the Father and the Holy Ghost.

Business is business.

Religion is regarded by the common people as true,
by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful.

~ Lucius Annaeus Seneca

Chili

Yes Pete but you are talking about Christianity where Jesus is always trump with no philosophy about it other than the money that drives it, and nothing about it is Platonic there for sure.

Chili

. . . and Pete, we call it hell on earth by which the Saints are entertained.

Chili

Seneca was pointing at so called Christianity here that is the anti-christ which is the stuff his tragedies are made of. Senecan tragedies are just opposite to divine comedies of which the details are given between Matthew and Mark and Luke and John, with Matthew and Mark being the rather funny tragedies and Luke and John are the complex comedies.

Both have a similar rising action and also the crisis moment with the only difference is that Matthew and Mark's Jesus goes back to Galilee from another 40 years to preach his Gospel for another 40 years and then will just die and fade away, while Luke in and John Jesus just goes poof and that which remains is in heaven, and so Christ is here to stay and moved to Rome, that's all.

The funny part here now is that Christians worship the one who went poof in Luke and John and actually are waiting for his return who is sure to come even after a thousand years to call them home to be with him, because they say, once you are dead a thousand years is like a day and a new body they will get for sure.

Robert Tulip

To say the historical Jesus is not needed for Christianity is a way to renovate the religion and make it compatible with science. The evidence suggests Jesus did not exist. Applying this hypothesis as a scientific heuristic produces elegant and economical explanations of the evolution of church history and teachings.

The rebuttal of a false historicism does not remove the status of Christianity. Mythicists and atheists tend to say that rejecting Jesus deals a mortal blow to faith. I prefer to argue that this finding actually restores the original natural intent, with all its intercultural and cosmic depth.

A scientific Christianity without Jesus as founder is the logical path to give new life to the magical encrusted tradition. Christianity without a historical Jesus Christ has more integrity and meaning than the wrong picture built by the old politics of the church. Understanding Jesus as pure spirit is more intellectually robust, and more ethical.

The old traditions of hymns and liturgy in the ceremony of worship can still retain their value as symbolic rituals and sources of spiritual meaning for the Christian community. Accepting there is no historical Jesus at the core of faith enables new vision, enabling analysis of Christian material to see what the dogmatic heritage could really mean against scientific insight.

aa5874

I cannot understand why you want to INVENT a new Jesus for Christians. The investigation of the history of the Jesus cult does not require that the investigator fabricate alternative characters for Christians to worship.

Surely you must realize that ALL people called Christians did NOT worship Jesus.

Surely you must have realized that the word Christian has NOTHING whatsoever to do with Jesus.

There would have been Christians without the Jesus cult because the word Christian is derived from the Greek word for "anointing".

The Christians called Theophilus of Antioch and Anthenagoras of Athens were called Christians and they mentioned NOTHING at all of Jesus in their writings.

MrMacSon

I think Robert has mixed a number of categories here - I'm not sure one can say science per se applies to this - it is more issues of philosophy and application of proper historical-principles. I'm not sure there's anything 'economical' about it.

That Jesus is unlikely to have been a true historical person is separate to whether modern Christianity can deal with that reality now and into the future.

"natural intent"? Don't we, today, assess Christianity's supernatural intent and the socio-anthropolical implications that it had at the time?

I don't see how "Christianity without a historical Jesus Christ has more integrity and meaning than the wrong picture built by the old politics of the church."

"scientific insight"? - psychological insight?