Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Dargo · 08-01-2005, 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diogenes the Cynic

The passages that many Christians try to argue as prophecies of Jesus usually have no Messianic intent in their original context. The authors of the gospels did that frequently themselves.

Well said. It was a thorough study of how dishonest the gospel author's (especially Mathew) were in quoting out of context Old Testament verses that sunk what was left of my faith. I even once read a conservative Bible commentary which admited that the author of Mathew might have gotten a little carried away in his quoting of prophecies. Of course, the commentator wasn't bothered by this problem.

badger3k · 08-01-2005, 03:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diogenes the Cynic

The OT Messiah has a specific set of expectations, none of which were met by Jesus. The OT Messiah is supposed to be a direct patrilineal descendant of David (an requirement which would be directly contradicted if Jesus was born of a virgin and which none of the Gospels make any claim for) who would rebuild the Temple, restore the kingdom of David, bring world peace, return all Jews to Israel and cause the world to worship one God. Jesus did none of that.

This reminds me of an interchange between a Fundie and a Rabbinical student on the Jewish Messiah. I was amazed how much the student didn't know about his own faith.

:banghead:

Jenn6162 · 08-01-2005, 03:59 PM

Thanks Diogenes and Badger (and Dargo),

I did not truly understand it myself, because I kept reading again and again looking for what Jesus wrote in the dirt. I liked the story, and I wasn't trying to prove anything just wanted to hear what you would say about it.

cass256 · 08-03-2005, 10:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jenn6162

Quote:
And in that day thou shalt say, O LORD, I will praise thee: though thou wast angry with me, thine anger is turned away, and thou comfortedst me. Behold, God is my salvation; I will trust, and not be afraid: for the LORD JEHOVAH is my strength and my song; he also is become my salvation. Therefore with joy shall ye draw water out of the wells of salvation. And in that day shall ye say, Praise the LORD, call upon his name, declare his doings among the people, make mention that his name is exalted. Sing unto the LORD; for he hath done excellent things: this is known in all the earth. Cry out and shout, thou inhabitant of

Quote:
Zion: for great is the Holy One of Israel in the midst of thee.

(can you see the Messianic prophecy here. The underlined part reads in Hebrew "Behold, God is Y'shua. I will put my confidence in and reverence him. YAH, YHVH is my strength, my rejoicing, and has become my Y'shua" -- Y'shua is Jesus

Hi, new to the forum and was reading this thread. Please bear with me. If I am out of line I will reverse out of here, no problem. I am interested in how you know what name to pray to. In this gentleman's message to you we find that he uses Lord Jehovah, and then changes it to YAH, YHVH is my strength. I have seen it written YHWH and Yahweh. It seems every place in the Old Testament the name "Lord" is written, the actual name written is no where near the word for "Lord"... and then he says Y'shua is jesus... but it isn't. Yeshua is Joshua.. Y'shua is either joshua or Jeshua at the most. There is no hebrew word or name that translates to Jesus in English, from what I understand. I hate to drag this off topic. But this is the question that had me jumping off the Christian boat. if anyone calling on the name of "the Lord" is to be saved, what name exactly would that be? Jesus the Greek? Y'shua the non specific Hebrew, Yeshua or Joshua, Yahweh, Jehovah YHWH, YHVH, yah, Yahvah, Yaveh,El, God, Elohim? what is the name that saves? I think if maybe someone could figure out what the name of "the Lord" is maybe we could all be saved, and Paradox could get his prayers answered.

Back on topic, was it not Israel and judah that were supposed to be returned to their land? From what I understand only the tribe of Judah and some Banjamins were returned the last 2 times. That was supposed to be why "Jesus" sent his Apostles out to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. in Matthew
and

Quote:

John 7:35 Then said the Jews among themselves, Whither will he go, that we shall not find him? will he go unto the dispersed among the Gentiles, and teach the Gentiles?

The dispersed are still for the most part dispersed, no?
Aren't the people who are the house of israel not jews, but those of the other ten tribes and the other Benjamins as well. But Isaiah says Judah and Israel both dispersed and outcasts.
When is he going to gather the remnant? or did he mean partial remnant?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jenn6162
The book of Isaiah was written before the Babylonian dispertion, but speaks of the Lord regathering Israel for a second time, which would be after the 70 AD dispertion.

Isa 11:11 And it shall come to pass in that day, [that] the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.

Isa 11:12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.

jfryejr · 08-03-2005, 12:48 PM

[slightly off topic, but too hard to let go...]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jenn6162

To me it a hatred so deep and unimaginable that I cannot fathom. No matter where the hate comes from it is there, and it makes no sense. To hate someone because of their heritage is inexcusable. Someone cannot help the fact that they are born a Jew. So being a self fulfilling prophecy seems like a stretch to me. Why is it that the arabs cannot stand that the Israelis own a tiny piece of land? When no one wanted to be there until the Jews came back to the land, and there was money to be made.

Bolded mine...
You do realize that there were people living in Palestine before Israel became a state? Do you also realize that they didn't want to leave their homes? The hate isn't because they're Jewish, it's because they butchered and forced the previous inhabitants to leave their homes. The previous inhabitants also happened to Muslim and Arab, which is a pretty good rallying cry for other Muslims and Arabs.

Now there aren't many nations that have come into existence without bloodshed against natives, so in human history I don't know how much the whole "Israel's right to exist" really matters any more than a question of the US returning control of its land to the Native Americans, but to claim there's no reason for the animosity is at best naive.

[If you want to respond to this, we should move it to the PD forum]

jonesg · 08-03-2005, 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spherical Time

I thought they'd conclusively proven that you can't be crucified through the hands: It won't support the weight of the body. Doesn't that indicate that this prophecy is actually incorrect, since Jesus would have been pierced through the wrist?

Not sure, I'm just a newbie in EoG and all.

There are remains found with a nail through the ankles stuck to wood from an ossuary in Israel. I have a photo in some Jesus book, an expensive one.

jonesg · 08-03-2005, 01:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diogenes the Cynic

The OT Messiah has a specific set of expectations, none of which were met by Jesus. The OT Messiah is supposed to be a direct patrilineal descendant of David (an requirement which would be directly contradicted if Jesus was born of a virgin and which none of the Gospels make any claim for) who would rebuild the Temple, restore the kingdom of David, bring world peace, return all Jews to Israel and cause the world to worship one God. Jesus did none of that.

You should also know that the OT expectations of the Messiah are that he will be a human king (not God incarnate or the "son of God"), that he will not be a redeemer of sins and that there is no expectation that he will suffer, or die, or be resurrected. The passages that many Christians try to argue as prophecies of Jesus usually have no Messianic intent in their original context. The authors of the gospels did that frequently themselves.

Its safe to say jewish expectations are one thing,
Gods purpose prevails though.
No-one directs God around.

Isaiah spells it out quit simply to me as far as prophesy, its not like it required rocket science to see what would happen when a messiah came along. Look at what happened to Ghandi. Its human nature.
Muslim scholars, famous ones, who denounce terrorism have been killed.
If it wasn't Jesus , it woulda been someone else...
but it wasn't someone else was it?

Diogenes the Cynic · 08-03-2005, 01:50 PM

I wasn't talking about Jewish expectations, I was talking about what the OT said the Messiah would (and would not) be. It's an important distinction. Interpretation doesn't enter into it.

What is Isaiah do you imagine says anything about Jesus?

John A. Broussard · 08-03-2005, 05:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jonesg

Isaiah spells it out quit simply to me as far as prophesy, its not like it required rocket science to see what would happen when a messiah came along. Look at what happened to Ghandi. Its human nature.
Muslim scholars, famous ones, who denounce terrorism have been killed.
If it wasn't Jesus , it woulda been someone else...
but it wasn't someone else was it?

You pose strange arguments indeed. Are you saying Ghandi was a messiah? Would you classify Joseph Smith, David Koresh, Malcolm X as messiahs?
Or are you now saying that anyone who is openly opposed to evil is likely to get killed?
I'm just not sure what this post of yours was supposed to demonstrate.

Could you explain?

Thanks

John A. Broussard · 08-03-2005, 05:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cass256

The dispersed are still for the most part dispersed, no?

The Jewish population of New York City is larger than the entire Jewish population of Israel, which contains only a fraction of the total number of Jews scattered through the world.

Welcome aboard, by the way.

Don't hesistate to chip in. We need more questions...and questioners.

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08-01-2005, 03:59 PM	#213
Jenn6162 Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Georgia Posts: 517	Thanks Diogenes and Badger (and Dargo), I did not truly understand it myself, because I kept reading again and again looking for what Jesus wrote in the dirt. I liked the story, and I wasn't trying to prove anything just wanted to hear what you would say about it.

08-03-2005, 01:50 PM	#218
Diogenes the Cynic Moderator - Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota Posts: 4,639	I wasn't talking about Jewish expectations, I was talking about what the OT said the Messiah would (and would not) be. It's an important distinction. Interpretation doesn't enter into it. What is Isaiah do you imagine says anything about Jesus?

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