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09-05-2011, 03:04 AM | #11 |
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You can participate in any way you'd like obviously. Continue to expound whatever you've learned from Moll. The topic is about Gal 4:21 - 31 and whether or not it is an interpolation. I just went through the book. Moll does not discuss Marcion's interest in this passage. So if you have any other sources for Marcion's interest in this passage it would certainly be of interest to me as I am so interested in new approaches to learn about Marcion and Marcionite beliefs and traditions. I obviously can't stop you from continuing to post. I would just figure that as Moll is the extent of your knowledge about Marcion that you'd have nothing further to add to your previous post about what the (alleged) differences are between Marcion and Paul's interpretation of the material.
The OP is not about Marcion. Why do you have to disagree with me about the Marcionite interpretation of the material if you know nothing little of liabout Marcion? I found it aggravating but I am not position to stop you from continuing to aggravate me. Your interpretation of the material in your last post won't work. It's not the way the ancients approached the material. Tip #1 if you care about the truth. Research how individuals and schools of thought interpreted material. It is unlikely that a new approach to familiar passages will be the right answer. Of course this assumes that you care about the truth. |
09-05-2011, 03:32 AM | #12 | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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09-05-2011, 07:29 AM | #13 | ||||
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09-05-2011, 07:32 AM | #14 | |||
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09-05-2011, 08:12 AM | #15 | ||||
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http://www.bibleinterp.com/articles/mol358031.shtml |
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09-05-2011, 08:22 AM | #16 | ||
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09-05-2011, 09:22 AM | #17 | |||
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DCH |
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09-05-2011, 11:36 AM | #18 | |
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Let's get back to the original OP. Moll says this in the paper cited by Mary Helena:
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09-05-2011, 12:15 PM | #19 |
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Another difficulty for Moll is the fact that the Marcionite interpretation is basically very similar to that of many Catholic writers. Tertullian (Adversus Marcionem 5.4.8) also interprets it as having to do with Judaism and Christianity. Marcion had already pointed to the synagogue and the church (on this see JL Martyn, “The Covenants of Hagar and Sarah,” in Faith and History). For the subsequent centuries Schreckenberg, Umfeld, 306, 332, 496, names as representatives of such an interpretation Ambrose of Milan, Maximus of Turin, and Abogard of Lyon (cf. n. 21); from the field of Greek exegesis one could also name John Chrysostom (PG 61:662-63) cf. Augustine, De Trinitate 15.9.15.
It is very hard for me to believe that Marcion could have shared so much in common with all these Patristic writers with the basic interpretation of the passage and yet ultimately 'hated' the Old Testament. It doesn't work like this. The difference between the Catholics and the Marcionites was emphasis not basic orientation. Marcion said the Old Testament was no longer in force with the coming of Christ for those who underwent the Christian mystery/mysteries. One could have accused Marcion of being a libertine (perhaps some did). Yet most of the criticism seems to have developed around his 'hostility' to the Law in the early sources (i.e. that he was motivated by hatred to preserve the original tradition associated with the New Testament). |
09-05-2011, 12:42 PM | #20 | ||
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In the third chapter Moll turns to the question of Marcion’s dualism, rejecting Harnack’s view that the arch-heretic distinguished between a just and a good God (47–76). It is argued that Marcion’s original doctrine distinguished between a good and an evil God, which was deformed by later Marcionites into a tripartite system of good God, just God, and evil God (or evil matter).I mention this, not just because it was brought up by maryhelena, but because it is out of character for the world view of that age, as found in contemporary Platonic and Valentinian literature. It was all about 1st principles that have made the world we know possible. Classically, Plato had postulated: First Principals.In Platonism of that era, the highest first principals were the One (Monad), which is the essence of things, and the Dyad, which allows things to come to be. These are ever existent, unknowable and exist in a different plane of existence. Two other secondary principals that have always existed are the Receptacle, aka Hyle through Aristotelian influence, being preexistent unformed matter existing in space, and the Demiurge (a Craftsman) who fashioned the cosmos (the physical universe) we can see using the unformed matter of the Receptacle, using universal Ideas or thoughts existing in the mind of the One as patterns. There was, however, some hesitation about accepting Plato's Demiurge, and efforts were made to find a different manner for it to happen. The Valentinians, on the other hand, took a different view: It is generally asserted that what chiefly distinguishes the Gnostic attitude from main-line Platonism is a conviction that this world is not only imperfect (a view with which all sides would concur), but the creation of an evil entity, and that we [souls] are total aliens in it. Plainly a radically world-negating philosophy must arise from this basic position. Within the Gnostic thought-world, however, Valentinus represents a relatively non-dualistic position. For him, the creation of the world results, not from the eternal confrontation between two archetypal powers, as it does for a thinker like Mani, but rather from a Fall occurring within the framework of a previously perfect system. ...Now it is clear to me that Dillon is right that Valentinianism was a modification of Platonic concepts. Marcion, on the other hand, is not a Gnostic with a system resembling the Valentinian system, but instead adopted (from Cerdo?) a simplified Platonic system in which The "Good" God is one principal, Hyle (Unformed matter, corresponding to the Recepticle of Plato) is another, and finally a Demiurge that created the cosmos from Hyle and ruled it as an autocrat, ignorantly thinking he was the supreme God, and punishing those who fell short of his strict justice, and who manifested himself as the God of the Hebrews. It is due to the Demiurge's imprisonment of the souls of men in Hades upon death, that rouses the Good God from his repose in the highest immaterial heaven to send his son, Christ, to rectify the situation. No Sophia throwing out unformed matter into a Pleroma to be expelled into space like an abortion in his system, but rather Hyle is preexistant. His concept of the Demiurge does have some affinity to the Valentinian Demiurge, as does his Good God with Plato's Monad. However, the fact that the Good God generates a Son to effect the rectification of the predicament that the Demiurge imposed on human souls, is somewhat reminiscent of the Aeons of the Pleroma creating the aeon Christ to respond to challenge occasioned by fragments of the cosmic soul being entrapped in the physical world ruled by the Demiurge. Head spinning yet? :constern01: DCH |
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