patman

Malaria, or whatever you want to pick, are obviously not something we wish on ourselves, or see as "risks worth taking."

I know of no one who wishes to get sick. I presented Adam as bringing death to himself and to us all. Today, we hardly have choice that death is among us. Children, least of all, have no control over that.

The Bible tells us that all will taste death. It is non-exclusive, it can happen to anyone anywhere at anytime by a number of possible reasons. Even children will die from time to time.

The Bible also explains that death is here because of sin. Yet even those without sin die, such as young children. Christians are said to be without sin made possible by Christ, and yet they die.

So what is the point of death? This world is apparently a very dangerous place, death's task is taking us off of this world, and in death we are temporarily moved to a place to stay while we wait on the new earth that we may enjoy eternal life, if we choose it.

So one might ask, why doesn't God just supernaturally recreate earth under our very feet? Why doesn't he forego death and magically transport us to this temporary place and recreate the earth and then bring us back?

The answer is sin. If sin is present in the next world, we will run into the same problems we have this world all over again. The world is a mesh of sinners and saints. The saints are ready for the new earth, but the sinners are not. God wishes for all to be ready, and for now sinners are still deciding to turn from sin and live in the new earth. (They may not realize completely what they are doing, they may simply see it as deciding to follow God or not, which in the long run leads to the same thing.)

Because God wishes for sinners to be released from the burden of sin (death, suffering, etc) and hopes they will give it up for a chance at a better world, he allows the world to go on.

One day, tho, he will transport many saints away from earth, foregoing death. But he will leave the sinners behind, that they might realize what happened and have one last opportunity to change.

Once all have decided, the new earth will be here for those who wish to live on it with God.

In the mean time, it is best for God not to supernaturally change things around. He leaves us to our sin that we might see the results of it (yes, malaria is one of those that had sin not came to this world we wouldn't know it existed) that we might turn from it and live in a new and better place without it.

I hope that helps a little more guys....
-Pat

P.S. please think about this before you start posting things. And please please don't "So Malaria is a punishment." If you do, I will know you didn't understand me, yet again.

patman

John, how many times did I state that I look to the bible for the answers? And you didn't gather that after I said time and time again that I believe in the Bible, that would mean I believed in Adam and Eve?

You are just now getting that?

And I also stated many times that I do not wish to get into a debate on creationism vs evolution in this thread. It can be completely avoided because we are discussing:

The God we are debating on is the God of the Bible. I have said that time and time again and you never challenged the bible. I have liberally given explanations to the world from it's pages. If we are debating the above, evolution and creationism aren't up for grabs nor relevant.

And beyond that, you accuse me of a creating strawman??

We are debating only one aspect of the many that result in faith or doubt in God. Lets not bring them all in when they take us away from the point.

The question "How can God exist if there is evil in the world" can be answered without a huge split to a different topic. It is answered by looking at God's word and seeing what he says about it. Analyze those answers and try to understand it, then decide based on being better informed.

patman

For some reason everyone in here wonders what I think about evolution and creationism.

I am obviously no scientist, I am no Dr., I do not know all the answers, and I do not hide it nor pretend to be otherwise. I have my beliefs, and my reasons for believing them. I wish no one would look down on me for that, but I guess it can't be avoided.

I try to stick to reason in understanding everything I pursue, Even God. I have my logical reasons for believing in what I do. Just like you have your reasons, I have mine.

It is my belief that I couldn't change your mind by throwing evidence for my views on creation because no matter what I say, it wouldn't be enough to outweigh the evidence you have against him. And the reason that I can't connivence you otherwise is not because I have poor evidence, It's because you believe what you want to.

If you want to doubt God, you will find reasons to, no matter what reasons I present. If you want to believe in him, you find reasons to believe.

When it comes to matters of Evolution or creationism, faith must come into play for both. We must have faith that evolution is real, because no one was there to witness it. Same for creationism. It requires faith. Both sides see evidence to support their claims, and they cling to that, but in the end, it is faith that we believe in either.

ANYWAY.

If you wish to start a thread about creationism vs evolution, I'll put my two cents in. I don't really have time to be tied up in yet another thread. So It would be great if we could limit it.

That said, I wonder why on earth you care what I say about it. You would be better of listening to someone who committed their lives to creation science and who understands evolution.

http://www.creationscience.com/IntheBeginningTOC.html

This is a book by Dr. Walt Brown, just such a person. He puts his research online free for all to read. In a new thread I would reference him and his theories often.

If you like to read and/or are truly interested, then consider his ideas and read his online book and learn from a someone truly studied rather than patman.

But if you must know what I think, start a new thread, and well talk about it some. Who knows, maybe I am wrong, maybe one of will change their mind about their views on our origins.

This thread is not the place for such debates tho.

EnterTheBowser

Anyways, so Adam let sin and suffering into the world by misrepresenting the word of God to Eve (oops!). Without calling it punishment, why exactly should people today suffer for his mistake?

What exactly would be wrong with a world where there was less natural evil?

What in the world was all that stuff about sinners and a coming perfect world? What does that have to do with natural evil?

Wads4

"Just talk amongst yourself and accuse me of being ignorant before I have a chance to present my points.

John and ETB, you accuse me of being unable to distinguish the difference between "accepting risks" and unintentionally having risks forced on us.

And John, you accuse me of creating a strawman!

I must have lost you both a loooong time ago, because my "sci-fi" scenario fits perfectly."

Hello- I'm back,-and after following the above correspondence it does seem to me that rather than answer questions directly you appear to shout "foul"
-ie accuse us of unfair treatment, and of not listening to what you are saying, or as with me,-of putting words into your mouth.
Lets face it, your theistic views are incompatible with our atheistic ones. As atheists we do not demand any answers from God, because we do not believe in God,-what we do is to ask you to answer our questions from the point of being a theist. If we found your answers to be convincing we would not be atheists would we?
As for asking questions in the far future, I wonder if, a million years from now, people will still be obsessed with the alleged doings of a Palestinian carpenter and be asking why he has not returned, and what his alleged father, God, has planned for us in his great scheme of things.

patman

I shout foul when questions pertaining to this thread are not relevant. I offered to give my input in a different thread about creationism and evolution, but this thread has no room for that.

I attempt and put much effort into answering these answers I give.

You said, "As atheists we do not demand any answers from God, because we do not believe in God,-what we do is to ask you to answer our questions from the point of being a theist."

I know, but this thread is not meant to answer any and every question. It is to address one, and I have pointed out often what that is and why we should stick to it. This thread is a split off of another thread because certain people couldn't stay on topic.

If you understand or agree that it is possible for a God to exist despite the bad of this world, then say so, if not, state why. Anything else isn't relevant here.

I have said often that I do not believe this thread would change any minds about Belief in God. All I attempt to do here is to knock out, what I believe, one misconception, not all.

John A. Broussard

I'm amazed that you aren't aware of the millions of Christians (perhaps the majority) who, unlike you, do not take the bible literally.

It was a simple mistake for me to assume that you didn't believe Joshua made the sun stand still, that your god created the universe with its billions of galaxies in less than a week, that rabbits chew their cud, that the earth is flat along with all the other fablles and contradictions in that document.

I stand corrected, however.

Anyhow, now we can start over.

Let's stick with malaria. I'm assuming that you believe that god created Plasmodium falciparum for some divine purpose other than making human beings suffer and die from that infection.

Could you give me some idea of what the reason was for the existence of this particularly deadly germ?

I now see that, since your god can't foresee the future, then the eventual role of P. falciparum in causing human suffering couldn't have been anticipated by your god, but surely there must have been some reason for creating it in the first place.

Thank you.

Wads4

"If you understand or agree that it is possible for a God to exist despite the bad of this world, then say so, if not, state why. Anything else isn't relevant here."

Ah well that is the question. I do not know if it is possible for a God to exist or not,-it is possible that it is possible,-but then we are getting into a train of meta-possibilities which leads to an infinite regress; -it is possible that it is possible that it is possible etc etc.
Besides, without a concise definition of God, one cannot even start to address this question, -otherwise the definition can be adjusted to encompass any enquiry- ie moving the goal-posts. If God is known by Christians as they claim, then is he the traditional omnimax God or not? if yes, then he is a logical impossibility; all the theodicy attempts are made in order to try and reconcile a God who knows all and is infinitely powerful and loving, with his unwillingness or inability to sort out the problem of evil; this problem was recognised as far back as Epicurus and Euthypro, and has never been resolved. However if he is not omnimax, then you are just making up his attributes as you go along,-which I explained before,-and therefore goal-post shifting. The existence of an infinitely definable God cannot be meaningfully addressed,-- all one can say is that there is a sound "God", which is made by various believers, and that they project all their hopes and fears and expectations onto this little sound,--but this "God" remains nothing more than just a noise.

patman

I really hoped my sci-fi scenario would explain more than it did.

Should God supernaturally stop one disease that it is now dangerous to humans that wasn't at creation?

Should God supernaturally make space safer via one method(i.e. giving it oxygen) when future humans need it for space to be safer?

My answer is he will put an end to death and suffering on earth one day, but not yet. I wish I could put it better, but you guys are going to have to think about that for yourself for now I guess.

John, I am a different type of Christian, by taking the Bible literately, I have successfully presented a god who, "actually makes a lot more sense then the standard Christian view of god."

Maybe the key to understanding God is by going towards the bible, not away from it, as unfortunately, many of my brothers and sisters have. (see God 6.0 http://www.theologyonline.com/newgod/)

John, I know many Christian's who believe nothing died before the fall. I simply do not agree and do not find that in the Bible. It seems that animal life is a cycle of life and death, animals feed on other animals, things die and rot, and it is all a neat system of balance. My guess that any germ that causes harm was intended for animals and not humans.

As you probably know, only a few strands of malaria are deadly to humans. At one time, I believe no strand was deadly to humans, but now they are. And for the time being, we must live with death and suffering.

Hope that offers something else.
-Pat

P.S. I know you guys don't believe in God. But is confusing when you address a Proper Noun with a lowercase spelling every single time. I am not perfect either, when I talk about God, or when I talk about a god, I goof it up sometimes. But so far I have yet to see any atheist/agnostic get it right at all. Saying "your god" is fine. But asking "why doesn't god do...," that's, well...

Anyway.
P.P.S.
Hope you all have a happy holiday season.

patman

Wads, I think you will find I have been pretty consistent in this form and others that I participate in. I am not making things up as I go along, I feel confident in my research to stand firm on my message.

But you are right about one thing - we need to establish what God we are talking about! But I think that was established long ago by Bling and affirmed by many others who participate in the discussion, that we are talking about the God of the Bible. Let that be the one and only "possible" that matters in this thread as to what god we are debating the existence of in respect to the presents of evil.

As one Bible reader to another, I submit that you drop the "omni" and the "im" characteristic descriptions of God as most are not even in the Bible, esp. the KJV.

http://www.theologyonline.com/forums...8&postcount=57

You may find the above post in an online debate interesting, as it attempts to answer many questions. I hope my other posts will answer your criticism further. It's long, but if you can make it through the Bible, you can make it through the above link.

Thanks,
-Pat

P.S. If you type the word quote between brackets [] , type something someone said, and then type /quote between brackets at the end of the statement, you'll get that box that shows you are quoting someone else.

[ quote] blah blah blah [/quote ]

Just leave out the spaces.

you can get really fancy and put quote=patman in the first brackets to make it specify who the quote is from.

[ quote=patman] blah blah blah [/quote ]

That would really help make your posts clear as to when you are speaking and when I am.