Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Calilasseia · 07-10-2007, 03:46 AM

And, 371 posts later, we're still no nearer receiving anything that can be remotely established as convincing evidence that humans circa 3,000 YBP had lifespans any longer than those reliably recorded in the present by medical science. Just as in other threads, we're light year away from establishing anything remotely akin to evidence for a global flood, or evidence for "genomes deteriorating because of the Curse and the Fall", of which this thread on allegedly 1,000 year old men is probably intended to be some kind of lemma in preparation for the main theorem.

Furthermore, if one looks at extant lists of reliably recorded supercentenarians, one interesting demographic fact emerges - women predominate in the extreme old age stakes. Here's a list of reliably recorded supercentnarians (persons 110 years of age or older) which illustrates this nicely:

Jeanne Calment (France), 122 years 164 days (female)
Shigechiyo Izumi (Japan) 120 years 237 days (male)
Sarah Knauss (USA) 119 years 97 days (female)
Lucy Hannah (USA) 117 years 248 days (female)
Marie-Louise Meilleur (Canada) 117 years 230 days (female)
Maria Capovilla (Ecuador) 116 years 347 days (female)
Tane Ikai (Japan) 116 years 175 days (female)
Elisabeth Bolden (USA) 116 years 118 days (female)
Carrie C. White (USA) 116 years 88 days (female)
Kamato Hongo (Japan) 116 years 45 days (female)
Maggie Barnes (USA) 115 years 319 days (female)
Christian Mortensen (USA of Danish origin) 115 years 252 days (male)
Charlotte Hughes (UK) 115 years 228 days (female)
Margaret Skeete (USA) 115 years 192 days (female)
Anitica Butanu (Romania) 115 years 157 days (female)
Emiliano Mercado del Toro (Puerto Rico) 115 years 156 days (male)
Bettie Wilson (USA) 115 years 153 days (female)
Julie Winnifred Bertrand (Canada) 115 years 124 days (female)
Susie Gibson (USA) 115 years 108 days (female)
Hendrijke van Andel-Schipper (Netherlands) 115 years 62 days (female)
Marie Brémont (France) 115 years 42 days (female)
Annie Jennings (UK) 115 years 8 days (female)

Funny how the bible doesn't mention any long lived women, isn't it? Mind you, women have never been that important in the bible ... unless you count the assorted rape victims, punished adulteresses and other flotsam and jetsam resulting from male abuse that tend to be the principal characters.

Dave Hawkins · 07-10-2007, 03:50 AM

All I have left to do is a little more extensive literature search on "ageing" then I'll be done.

Calilasseia · 07-10-2007, 03:54 AM

One is tempted to ask at this point whether 'done' in this instance means "southern fried" or "barbecued" ...

:devil1:

RED DAVE · 07-10-2007, 04:00 AM

It's really embarassing for me to admit that I have, in fact, unearthed evidence that afdave is correct.

He must be right because one of the super-old people is alive today. Here's an interview with him:

The Two Thousand Year Old Man:

Quote:

Carl Reiner: Sir, can you tell us a little about your children?

2000-year-old man: — I have more than 42,000 children and not one comes to visit me. But they’re children. All you can do is let them go. I say, “Good luck to them.” Let them be happy. As long as they’re happy, I don’t care. Of course, they should send a note. “Hiya Pop. How you doing, Pop?” I’m proud of them anyway. I have 21,000 doctors, 10,000 lawyers, 700 accountants, 400 teachers, plenty of scientists, a few rabbis, and the rest are in show business (ten Oscars, twenty-two Golden Globes, seven Emmys, sixteen Tonys, two Obies and a Kasha.*)

*Note: Russian award for country-eastern singing.

http://tobkes.othellomaster.com/arch...10/26/old-man/

RED DAVE

The Evil One · 07-10-2007, 04:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Pearse

But perhaps you might find it useful to reread what I wrote in response to the OP. The issue that I raised seems to me much more interesting than simply reiterating slogans.

This issue has already been dealt with.

Converting the years into months in either the SKL, its Babylonian descendent, or Genesis does not bring the times as stated into the realm of reason. Both sequences (especially Genesis) have slowly declining time periods which gradually transition to realistic numbers.

If the genesis years are months then the patriarchs begat sons as prepubescent boys and Abraham died before growing a single hair on his chin. This was covered pages ago.

And I have already said that if you have any solid reason to believe that the standard interpretation of Sumerian base-60 arithmetic is mistaken, you should feel free to post it.

So far your contribution has been to say "well what if X didn't really mean X"? You have not provided any solid reason to think that X doesn't really mean X, nor even made any explicit comment on the consequences of X not really meaning X.

It would be below the belt for me to refer to this overall contribution as content-free, so I won't.

angelo · 07-10-2007, 04:51 AM

Has our friend Dave ever answered how Noah used pitch to build his ''ark'' when according to creationists that oil was caused by the sediments ''after the FLUD water subsided.??

VoxRat · 07-10-2007, 05:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by angelo atheist

Has our friend Dave ever answered how Noah used pitch to build his ''ark'' when according to creationists that oil was caused by the sediments ''after the FLUD water subsided.??

Ooh ooh ooh! I've got it! The solution to both the ark pitch problem and the 900 year old patriarchs! The patriarchs were Time Lords!

ETA: that solves the space problem on the ark, too. It was a tardis.

Dave Hawkins · 07-10-2007, 05:10 AM

LITERATURE SEARCH ON "AGEING PROCESS"
In addition to the previously posted Nature article by Rando - Stem cells, ageing and the quest for immortality, I also found these with just a quick search ...

Quote:

Nature 444, 1015-1017 (21 December 2006) | doi:10.1038/4441015a; Published online 21 December 2006

Ageing: Too fast by mistake

Tom Kirkwood1
Top of page
Abstract

The intricate process of ageing involves numerous physiological pathways, together with genetic and environmental factors. Insight into this complex biology could come from studying a disorder that accelerates ageing.

Contrary to general expectation, human life expectancy in developed countries has not bumped into a ceiling, but continues to increase by around two years per decade1 — or five hours per day. The reason previous forecasts proved wrong is simple. It used to be assumed that the ageing process was programmed, that some inner clock set a limit to life. But advances in the understanding of evolutionary mechanisms, and the experimental dissection of the genetics of ageing and longevity, reveal that this is not so2. Instead, the genetic control of longevity comes through regulation of the body's survival mechanisms — those essential maintenance and repair processes that slow the build-up of the molecular and cellular faults that will eventually undo us (Box 1).

Quote:

Nature 444, 1038-1043 (21 December 2006) | doi:10.1038/nature05456; Received 11 September 2006; Accepted 20 November 2006

A new progeroid syndrome reveals that genotoxic stress suppresses the somatotroph axis

Laura J. Niedernhofer et al.

Multiple types of cellular and molecular damage accumulate with age6, and could trigger the same stress response. This likelihood is supported by the highly significant correlation between the transcriptomes of Ercc1-/- mice and old mice, as well as the fact that growth hormone/IGF1 signalling decreases with age in mammals48. On this basis, we propose the following model to explain how DNA damage (and probably other types of molecular damage) contributes to ageing (Fig. 5e). Damage accumulates with time as a consequence of exposure to endogenous and environmental genotoxins and incomplete repair. The DNA damage triggers a stress response either directly or by interfering with transcription or replication. The response is systemic dampening of the growth hormone/IGF1 hormonal axis, through a mechanism that is, as yet, unknown, but is highly conserved6, 7, 8. This in turn leads to metabolic changes that shift energy usage from growth and proliferation to protective maintenance7, minimizing further damage, but contributing to apoptosis49. Despite this protective response, organisms which continue to accumulate damage will inevitably age. Repair-deficient Ercc1-/- mice continue to rapidly accumulate DNA damage and experience an early onset of degenerative processes. Aged organisms in which either damage prevention or repair mechanisms may already be compromised will continue to accumulate damage slowly, eventually succumbing to age-related morbidities and mortality. In both examples, the 'ageing process' is retarded by the insulin-mediated stress response.

This model reconciles two apparently disparate hypotheses of ageing: that ageing is genetically regulated7 and that ageing is a consequence of the accumulation of stochastic damage6. In fact, both are correct. Damage drives the functional decline that is associated with ageing; however, a highly conserved longevity assurance mechanism, mediated by the IGF1/insulin pathway, influences how rapidly damage accumulates and function is lost.

Quote:

Cell biology: Old before their time

Proc. Natl Acad. Sci. USA 104, 4949–4954; 4955–4960 (2007)

The mutant protein responsible for Hutchinson–Gilford progeria syndrome, which causes premature ageing, may hold up the cell cycle, two groups have shown.

Teams led by Francis Collins of the National Human Genome Research Institute in Bethesda, Maryland, and by Robert Goldman of Northwestern University in Chicago, Illinois, studied cells that were making the mutant form of lamin A, which normally acts as scaffolding for the cell nucleus. They found abnormalities in various processes, such as chromosome segregation, assembly of the nuclear membrane and cell division. Similar defects occur in a fraction of normal human cells, backing the idea that this anomalous protein contributes to the normal ageing process.

Quote:

Nature 425, 132-133 (11 September 2003) | doi:10.1038/425132a

Ageing: A toast to long life

Toren Finkel

...

Building on the knowledge that caloric restriction prolongs longevity through Sir2, Howitz et al.1 searched for a small molecule that could activate this enzyme directly. Using several chemical 'libraries', these investigators discovered two related compounds that each stimulated Sir2 activity. Both compounds belong to a family of molecules called polyphenols — products of metabolism in plants. One of the most widely studied of these compounds is resveratrol, a plant polyphenol that is abundant in red wine and is reputed to underlie many of wine's health-related benefits. Interestingly, resveratrol seemed to be the most potent Sir2 activator of all of the plant polyphenols tested. The authors showed that this chemical prolonged the lifespan of yeast by approximately 70%. The extension of longevity was entirely dependent on Sir2 — yeast strains deficient in this enzyme did not benefit from resveratrol treatment.

Could plant polyphenols be the long-sought elixir of youth? Previous studies have hinted that these compounds have several potential health benefits, especially in protecting against age-related maladies such as cancer, neurodegeneration and atherosclerosis9. Interestingly, caloric restriction is also thought to protect against these diseases. But caution is warranted before endorsing a strict Cabernet Sauvignon-based regimen. First, the concentration-dependent effects of resveratrol as observed by Howitz et al. were complicated. At relatively low doses these molecules stimulated sirtuin activity, but, at least in certain assays, higher doses had the opposite effect. This is not an ideal characteristic for a pharmaceutical drug. Second, and more importantly, life extension in yeast is a long way from life extension in higher organisms. Indeed, how sirtuins function in mammalian ageing is not yet known.

Further unravelling of the molecular signalling pathways that accompany caloric restriction should provide clues to other potential targets for drug development. In a strange way, however, the study by Howitz et al. suggests that Ponce de León's misbegotten quest for a fountain of youth surrounded by flowering plants was not so delusional after all. The explorer's only mistake was that he kept sampling the waters, when he should have been testing the plants.

So, contrary to the settled opinion of people like Eric Murphy who like to say "No, no, no ... there's not one scintilla of evidence for anything you say, Dave ... this is so elementary, a third grader would know this" ... there IS scientific evidence for both genetic and environmental factors which affect the ageing process.

Consider the following ...
1) The hydrologic cycle was different pre-Flood. A "mist watered the earth", there was no rain, and there was something referred to as the "waters above" (Genesis 1:7 and Genesis 2:5, 6). Some writers have suggested that this "waters above" might have caused a higher atmospheric pressure and have asked if this would have any effect on longevity. Some have suggested that the large flying reptiles we see in the fossil record would not have been able to fly without a much higher atmospheric pressure. I have not researched the science behind this suggestion, but it would be interesting to do so.

2) The massive quantities of buried vegetation suggest that the pre-Flood world had much more lush vegetation, some have suggested 100X or more the modern inventory of carbon in the biosphere. (See the journal Origins from GRISDA, particularly R.H. Brown) What effect would this have had on the atmosphere and organismal longevity?

3) Biblical inferences lead us to believe that humans were vegetarian prior to the Flood, but began eating meat after the Flood. (Genesis 1 & 2, Gen. 9:3 and various non-Biblical references) What effect on longevity could this have had?

So come on, all you evolutionists! Open your minds up and set your imaginations free. Don't say "No, no, no ... we can't, we can't, we can't." Start thinking like a creationist and saying "Imagine if ... Could it be? ... I wonder if ... What if we tried ..." and so on.

Who knows what wonders we might discover!

Dave Hawkins · 07-10-2007, 05:18 AM

HANDY LINKS TO THE LONG-LIVED PATRIARCH DISCUSSION
Roger Pearse on the value of written documents
"The Evil One" analyzes Josephus' sources
Petrie and Langdon: Early Egyptians were monotheists
More on Early Egyptian Monotheism
Faber on Long Lived Patriarchs
Faber citations decoded
Literature search on the "ageing process"

If I have time, I would like to look around a little more to see if I can find some of those writings referenced by Josephus and Faber. Also, I want to investigate TEO's claim that Manetho "doesn't help me."

So don't close the thread quite yet, please.

deadman_932 · 07-10-2007, 05:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VoxRat

Quote:

Originally Posted by angelo atheist

Has our friend Dave ever answered how Noah used pitch to build his ''ark'' when according to creationists that oil was caused by the sediments ''after the FLUD water subsided.??

Ooh ooh ooh! I've got it! The solution to both the ark pitch problem and the 900 year old patriarchs! The patriarchs were Time Lords!

no, no, NO!! The solution is trivially easy now that we have all the pieces in place:
1. Trees live a long time
2. Some trees emit sap that can be used as pitch
3. Ergo, the patriarchs were trees.
4. As textual support, I offer the following:
a. The tree of knowledge of good and evil was a tree:

Quote:

Genesis 2:9 -
Out of the ground the LORD God made various trees grow that were delightful to look at and good for food, with the tree of life in the middle of the garden and the tree of the knowledge of good and bad.

5. The Egyptians knew of trees and the Sumerians, and the Ancient peoples of India, China, Maylay, Cambodia, and even the New World.
6. Tree myths are world wide. I challenge anyone to name a culture that does not have a myth, legend, folktale or limerick about trees.
7. Finally, "Trees" by Joyce Kilmer was written under divine guidance:

I think that I shall never see
A poem lovely as a tree.

A tree whose hungry mouth is prest
Against the earth's sweet flowing breast;

A tree that looks at God all day,
And lifts her leafy arms to pray;

A tree that may in Summer wear
A nest of robins in her hair;

Upon whose bosom snow has lain;
Who intimately lives with rain.

Poems are made by fools like me,
But only God can make a tree.

Q-E-freakin'-D, you heathen scum

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07-10-2007, 03:46 AM	#371
Calilasseia Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Near Liverpool, UK Posts: 1,072	And, 371 posts later, we're still no nearer receiving anything that can be remotely established as convincing evidence that humans circa 3,000 YBP had lifespans any longer than those reliably recorded in the present by medical science. Just as in other threads, we're light year away from establishing anything remotely akin to evidence for a global flood, or evidence for "genomes deteriorating because of the Curse and the Fall", of which this thread on allegedly 1,000 year old men is probably intended to be some kind of lemma in preparation for the main theorem. Furthermore, if one looks at extant lists of reliably recorded supercentenarians, one interesting demographic fact emerges - women predominate in the extreme old age stakes. Here's a list of reliably recorded supercentnarians (persons 110 years of age or older) which illustrates this nicely: Jeanne Calment (France), 122 years 164 days (female) Shigechiyo Izumi (Japan) 120 years 237 days (male) Sarah Knauss (USA) 119 years 97 days (female) Lucy Hannah (USA) 117 years 248 days (female) Marie-Louise Meilleur (Canada) 117 years 230 days (female) Maria Capovilla (Ecuador) 116 years 347 days (female) Tane Ikai (Japan) 116 years 175 days (female) Elisabeth Bolden (USA) 116 years 118 days (female) Carrie C. White (USA) 116 years 88 days (female) Kamato Hongo (Japan) 116 years 45 days (female) Maggie Barnes (USA) 115 years 319 days (female) Christian Mortensen (USA of Danish origin) 115 years 252 days (male) Charlotte Hughes (UK) 115 years 228 days (female) Margaret Skeete (USA) 115 years 192 days (female) Anitica Butanu (Romania) 115 years 157 days (female) Emiliano Mercado del Toro (Puerto Rico) 115 years 156 days (male) Bettie Wilson (USA) 115 years 153 days (female) Julie Winnifred Bertrand (Canada) 115 years 124 days (female) Susie Gibson (USA) 115 years 108 days (female) Hendrijke van Andel-Schipper (Netherlands) 115 years 62 days (female) Marie Brémont (France) 115 years 42 days (female) Annie Jennings (UK) 115 years 8 days (female) Funny how the bible doesn't mention any long lived women, isn't it? Mind you, women have never been that important in the bible ... unless you count the assorted rape victims, punished adulteresses and other flotsam and jetsam resulting from male abuse that tend to be the principal characters.

07-10-2007, 03:50 AM	#372
Dave Hawkins Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Missouri Posts: 2,375	All I have left to do is a little more extensive literature search on "ageing" then I'll be done.

07-10-2007, 03:54 AM	#373
Calilasseia Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Near Liverpool, UK Posts: 1,072	One is tempted to ask at this point whether 'done' in this instance means "southern fried" or "barbecued" ... :devil1:

07-10-2007, 04:51 AM	#376
angelo Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Australia Posts: 5,706	Has our friend Dave ever answered how Noah used pitch to build his ''ark'' when according to creationists that oil was caused by the sediments ''after the FLUD water subsided.??

07-10-2007, 05:18 AM	#379
Dave Hawkins Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Missouri Posts: 2,375	HANDY LINKS TO THE LONG-LIVED PATRIARCH DISCUSSION Roger Pearse on the value of written documents "The Evil One" analyzes Josephus' sources Petrie and Langdon: Early Egyptians were monotheists More on Early Egyptian Monotheism Faber on Long Lived Patriarchs Faber citations decoded Literature search on the "ageing process" If I have time, I would like to look around a little more to see if I can find some of those writings referenced by Josephus and Faber. Also, I want to investigate TEO's claim that Manetho "doesn't help me." So don't close the thread quite yet, please.

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