aa5874

Quoting an article from Elaine Pagels is NOT really Evidence, the article just merely shows her opinion and you know experts can disagree on any matter.

As I have explained repeatedly once Justin claimed that the Greek myths were LIES and were made (fabricated) by poets under the influence of demons then you cannot claim that Justin believe in Greek mythology.

Justin wrote that people were DECEIVED BY THE POETS.

So Homer was influenced by demons to write his myths.

Hesiod was influenced by demons to write his myths.

People were believed to be POSSESSED by DEMONS.

In the NT, Jesus cast DEMONS out of people.

Legion had many demons, according to the Synoptics.

These are some of the myths that the poets have made of which Justin has separated himself.

Agamemnon, Helen, Chryseis, Briseis, the son of Thetis, Pelides Hector, Polyxena, Apollo, Ithacan Ulysses, Ajax, son of Telamon, Chronos, the son of Ouranos, Jupiter, Neptune, Pluto, Proserpine, Ceres, Melanippe, Antiope, Danae, Europa, Leda, Semele Ganymede, Saturn, Daphne, Hyacinthus, Minerva, Bacchus, Venus, Hercules, Achelous, Busiris, Nessus, Vulcan, Mars, Atreus, Thyestes, Pelops, Danaus, Procne, Athens, OEdipus,and Laius.


You cannot show me a single passage where Justin claimed any of those named myths actually did exist and did actually do anything as claimed by the poets.

In antiquity people in general, not only Homer, believed EPILEPSY and many other strange behaviour including incurable diseases were caused by demons. Demons were believed to influence human beings.

PhilosopherJay

Hi aa5874,

Regarding:

It would not make any sense for Justin to point out the immoral behavior of Gods/Demons in all of these myths if he did not believe they were real demons and did the immoral things the poets spoke about. So in every single passage he assumes the reader accepts that the stories about them are real and he is just trying to point out the nastiness of the things that the Gods/demons did. For example, from Discourse to the Greeks, chapter II:
The writer is telling us what Neptune and Jupiter did. He does not say they did not exist. It was acknowledged by all that the poets got their information from the Gods. Whether the stories the Gods told were true or false, exaggerated or straight history didn't matter as the Gods had to exist to tell them to the poets. The only thing that Justin finds false about them is that they are being told by demons, not Gods.

Regarding Elaine Pagels, she is making an argument and not just expressing an opinion. If you believe her argument is wrong. Please explain what is the mistake she makes.

Is it your claim that Justin Martyr alone among the Church fathers did not believe that the Greco-Roman Gods were demons or do you claim that that all the early Christian writers who wrote about demons believed that? For example, do you contend that the writer of The Octavius usually cited as Minucius Felix also believed that the Greco-Roman Gods did not exist as demons when he wrote this?

(chapter 26)
(chapter 27)
"These impure spirits, therefore-the demons-as is shown by the Magi, by the philosophers, and by Plato, consecrated under statues and images, lurk there, and by their afflatus attain the authority as of a present deity; while in the meantime they are breathed into the prophets, while they dwell in the shrines, while sometimes they animate the fibres of the entrails, control the flights of birds, direct the lots, are the cause of oracles involved in many falsehoods. For they are both deceived, and they deceive; inasmuch as they are both ignorant of the simple truth, and for their own ruin they confess not that which they know. Thus they weigh men downwards from heaven, and call them away from the true God to material things: they disturb the life, render all men91 unquiet; creeping also secretly into human bodies, with subtlety, as being spirits, they feign diseases, alarm the minds, wrench about the limbs; that they may constrain men to worship them, being gorged with the fumes of altars or the sacrifices of cattle, that, by remitting what they had bound, they may seem to have cured it. These raging maniacs also, whom you see rush about in public, are moreover themselves prophets without a temple; thus they rage, thus they rave, thus they are whirled around. In them also there is a like instigation of the demon, but there is a dissimilar occasion for their madness. From the same causes also arise those things which were spoken of a little time ago by you, that Jupiter demanded the restoration of his games in a dream, that the Castors appeared with horses, and that a Small ship was following the leading of the matron's girdle. A great many, even some of your own people, know all those things that the demons themselves confess concerning themselves, as often as they are driven by us from bodies by the torments of our words and by the fires of our prayers. Saturn himself, and Serapis, and Jupiter, and whatever demons you worship, overcome by pain, speak out what they are; and assuredly they do not lie to their own discredit, especially when any of you are standing by. Since they themselves are the witnesses that they are demons, believe them when they confess the truth of themselves; for when abjured by the only and true God, unwillingly the wretched beings shudder in92 their bodies, and either at once leap forth, or vanish by degrees, as the faith of the sufferer assists or the grace of the healer inspires. Thus they fly from Christians when near at hand, whom at a distance they harassed by your means in their assemblies. And thus, introduced into the minds of the ignorant, they secretly sow there a hatred of us by means of fear. For it is natural both to hate one whom you fear, and to injure one whom you have feared, if you can. Thus they take possession of the minds and obstruct the hearts, that men may begin to hate us before they know us; lest, if known, they should either imitate us, or not be able to condemn us.

Warmly,

Philosopher Jay

aa5874

You are NOT making much sense.

Justin is pointing out what the POETS said about their THEOGONY, he is REPEATING the composition of MADNESS FABRICATED by the Poets.

How could Justin believe the same myths he called MADNESS, LIES and DRIVEL?

Please look at the words of Justin in Discourse to the Jews. Surely the passage implies that Justin did NOT believe the myths of Homer and has SEPARATED himself from Greek customs and BELIEFS.

Did not Justin write that he has SEPARATED himself from Greek customs?

What were the Greek customs about their Gods?

Again you are not making much sense.

And you are constantly contradicting and confusing yourself. You are using the word "demon" to mean "god".

It would appear that Gods are of a higher supernatural status to demons. Gods control demons.

You seem to forget that Justin wrote that he ONLY believed in ONE GOD not the plurality of Gods.

You seem to forget that the Greek Gods or THEOGONY was MANUFACTURED by the POETS.

The Greek Gods said NOTHING. They were the myths of POETS.

It was the POETS, like Homer and Hesiod, possessed by Demons, who wrote the mythical Greek THEOGONY according to Justin.

I am claiming that Justin Martyr wrote that he was "not covetous to believe the myths of Homer."

I am claiming that Justin Martyr did write that he has "separated himself from the madness" of the myths of Homer.

I am claiming that Justin did write that the plurality of God was like a[/b] disease[/b] that was to be ERADICATED and spread by the father of lies.[/b]

PhilosopherJay

Hi aa5874,

Let me ask a very simple question. Do you believe the writings of Justin are in agreement with Augustine when Augustine wrote these chapters?

City of God, Book 2, Chapter 8
and this City of God, Book 3, Chapter 11
Are Justin and Augustine in agreement here or not?

Warmly,

Philosopher Jay

aa5874

I have NOT written a single thing about Augustine. I am NOT dealing with Augustine.

Justin Martyr claimed that the plurality of God was a like a DISEASE that needed to be ERADICATED.

Don't you see the passage?


"Hortatory Address to the Greeks" XXI
The plurality of Gods are lies, a disease that must be eradicated from the soul of man by the ONE and ONLY God.

PhilosopherJay

Hi All,


I admit that taking certain quotes out of context can give the impression that Justin did not believe in the Greek Gods as demons. Put in context, it is clear that he did believe that Greek Gods were demons.

"Quote Mining," taking a line here and there out of context to give a false impression that a writer held this or that opinion is not a game I care to play. I prefer to look at the totality of a writer's work and the totality of works related to a writer in order to understand a writer.

Does anybody else have an opinion on this issue?

Warmly,

Philosopher Jay

Toto

Your patience with aa5874 is notable.

It seems pretty clear to me that most Christians throughout most of history, including the present, believe(d) in evil spirits, so I don't see the problem. Justin M. did not believe that the Greek gods were gods, but he did believe in their existence as evil demons. He rejected the Greek myths because of their defective moral philosophy, not for their lack of historical truth, which would have been irrelevant.

I should probably split this thread.

GakuseiDon

As much as I really, REALLY hate to side with aa, he does have a point. Earlier in this thread, you wrote:
I don't think that is strictly true. For Justin, the poets wrote stories about the gods. Some of those stories portrayed the gods behaving both benevolently and atrociously. For Justin, the demons inspired these stories to deceive and lead astray; nonetheless, the atrocious acts of those gods in those stories ironically revealed the demons' true nature. From his First Apology:

...before He [Christ] became a man among men, some, influenced by the demons before mentioned, related beforehand, through the instrumentality of the poets, those circumstances as having really happened, which, having fictitiously devised, they narrated, in the same manner as they have caused to be fabricated the scandalous reports against us of infamous and impious actions

So, these are just stories "fictitiously devised" narrated by the poets, according to Justin. However, I do agree with you that Justin thought that some of the myths were a reflection of actual activities of demons and demi-gods in the past.

aa5874

But, that is exactly what you have done.

You have made erroneous claims about Marcion by not showing the passages where Justin referred to the Greek Gods as MYTHS.

You claimed that Justin criticised the Greek Gods and I pointed out you to that Justin ONLY repeated the writings of the Poets.

You claimed Justin Martyr believed in the Greek Gods and I pointed out that Justin stated he had separated himself from the customs of the Greeks and that the PLURALITY of Gods was false and like a DISEASE to MANKIND.

But, you have also QUOTED passages from the very writings of Justin Martyr. You can also be accused of "quote mining" to give a false impression of Justin.

Why do you think that you cannot or is incapable of "quote mining".

And, you did NOT refer to ALL of Justin Martyr's works you are the one who DID refer to the works of Augustine and Elaine Pagels.

I am the one who told you that I am dealing NOT dealing with Augustine.

You want to avoid the works of Justin Martyr in totality.

GakuseiDon

Tatian, who was thought to be Justin's student, makes similar criticisms about the Roman gods. In his "Address to the Greeks", he writes:
http://www.earlychristianwritings.co...n-address.html

For what reason is Hera now never pregnant? Has she grown old? or is there no one to give you information? Believe me now, O Greeks, and do not resolve your myths and gods into allegory. If you attempt to do this, the divine nature as held by you is overthrown by your own selves; for, if the demons with you are such as they are said to be, they are worthless as to character; or, if regarded as symbols of the powers of nature, they are not what they are called. But I cannot be persuaded to pay religious homage to the natural elements, nor can I undertake to persuade my neighbour. And Metrodorus of Lampsacus, in his treatise concerning Homer, has argued very foolishly, turning everything into allegory. For he says that neither Hera, nor Athene, nor Zeus are what those persons suppose who consecrate to them sacred enclosures and groves, but parts of nature and certain arrangements of the elements. Hector also, and Achilles, and Agamemnon, and all the Greeks in general, and the Barbarians with Helen and Paris, being of the same nature, you will of course say are introduced merely for the sake of the machinery of the poem, not one of these personages having really existed.