Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Reason · 07-08-2008, 08:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dr lazer blast

thats what i've been saying. The fact that there were so many people that witnessed the event, the mixture of skeptics believers and unbelievers and the professor of natural science there rules out the mass hysteria option. Saying it is mass hysteria is a baseless assertion and its a logical fallacy post hoc ergo propter hoc

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post_hoc_ergo_propter_hoc

Come on, DLB--you do not really blieve any of this stuff, you just like to argue. Am I right? :wave:

dr lazer blast · 07-08-2008, 10:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anduin

Quote:

Originally Posted by dr lazer blast

No blood has been found on the Shroud of Turin. You must be reading Catholic propaganda.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shroud_...n#Blood_stains

Quote:

Blood stains

There are several reddish stains on the shroud suggesting blood. McCrone (see above) identified these as containing iron oxide, theorizing that its presence was likely due to simple pigment materials used in medieval times. Other researchers, including Alan Adler, a chemist specializing in analysis of porphyrins, identified the reddish stains as type AB blood and interpreted the iron oxide as a natural residue of that chemical always found in red blood cells.

I didn't know wiki was catholic propaganda website....

dr lazer blast · 07-08-2008, 10:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reason

Quote:

Originally Posted by dr lazer blast

thats what i've been saying. The fact that there were so many people that witnessed the event, the mixture of skeptics believers and unbelievers and the professor of natural science there rules out the mass hysteria option. Saying it is mass hysteria is a baseless assertion and its a logical fallacy post hoc ergo propter hoc

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post_hoc_ergo_propter_hoc

Come on, DLB--you do not really blieve any of this stuff, you just like to argue. Am I right? :wave:

Sure I do, I have witnessed many miracles within my own life, I don't see how this would be any different.

dr lazer blast · 07-08-2008, 10:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Meatros

[
I'm sorry, but it's a fraud and it's quite easy to tell it's a fraud.

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Further evidence for the Shroud as an art object comes from what might be called the "Mercator projection" argument. The shroud in two dimensions presents a three-dimensional image projected onto a planar (two-dimensional) surface, just as in a photograph or painting. This perspective is consistent with both painting and image formation using a bas relief.[47] A true burial shroud would have rested nearly cylindrically across the three-dimensional facial surface, if not more irregularly. The result would be an unnatural lateral distortion, a strong widening to the sides, in contrast to the kind of normal photographic image a beholder would expect, let alone the strongly vertically elongated image on the Shroud fabric.

This argument is disputed by the paper presented at [9]PDF (385 KiB). Essentially, distortions can be small if the Shroud was not lying tight against the body. It is not explained, however, how the shroud could have gotten the details of the face if it wasn't lying tight against the body.

weird...

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The image on the cloth has many peculiar and closely studied characteristicsPDF (114 KiB), for example, it is entirely superficial, not penetrating into the cloth fibers under the surface, so that the flax and cotton fibers are not colored; the image yarn is composed of discolored fibers placed side by side with non-discolored fibers so many striations appear. Thus the cloth is not simply dyed, though many other explanations, natural and otherwise, have been suggested for the image formation

looks like you have evidence to support your view and there is evidence that is contradictory to your view....

http://www.shroud.com/pdfs/doclist.pdf

Quote:

Reflectance spectra, chemical tests, laser-microprobe Raman spectra, pyrolysis mass
spectrometry, and x-ray fluorescence all show that the image is not painted with any of the
expected, historically-documented pigments

Quote:

Chemical tests showed that there is no protein painting medium or protein-containing
coating in image areas

I guess thats why they have called it inconclusive, sorry but you saying it is a fraud has just as much clout as people saying it isn't a fraud.

Anduin · 07-08-2008, 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dr lazer blast

I didn't know wiki was catholic propaganda website....

You missed this part:

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Joe Nickell notes that, unlike McCrone, Heller and Adler are neither forensic serologists nor pigment experts, nor are they experienced in detecting art forgeries. Nickell makes reference to the 1983 conference of the International Association for Identification where forensic analyst John E. Fischer demonstrated how results similar to Heller and Adler's could be obtained from tempera paint.[41] Skeptics also cite other forensic blood tests whose results dispute the authenticity of the Shroud. "Forensic tests on the red stuff have identified it as red ocher and vermilion tempera paint."[42] Even if blood is found, "it could be the blood of some 14th century person. It could be the blood of someone wrapped in the shroud, or the blood of the creator of the shroud, or of anyone who has ever handled the shroud, or of anyone who handled the sticky tape. But even if there were blood on the shroud, that would have no bearing on the age of the shroud or on its authenticity."[42] Skeptics also note that the apparent blood flows on the shroud are unrealistically neat. Leading forensic pathologist Michael Baden observes that real blood never oozes in nice neat rivulets, it gets clotted in the hair. He concludes that "[h]uman beings don't produce this kind of pattern."[43]

:wave:

mdejess · 07-08-2008, 07:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trout

Anyone else ever notice how these wild n crazy "miracles" always seem to occur in areas populated by often undereducated religious folks to begin with? Where has the sun done the two step over a major world city or hey, maybe even an observatory?

Excuse me while I go find a village of illiterate Mexicans who see jesus in a buritto.

There are paranormal phenomena in major world cities; among simple peoples, peasants, in a pre-technological setting, they would call them miracles.

I call them unusual, exceptional, or extraordinary occurrences.

First thing to do with any scientific investigation is to determine whether our present day resources can dig as I said into them inside out and upside down.

If not, then we are left with no other alternatives except to interpret them in the light of what we do know today about the regularly observed events of the everyday world.

Hallucination is one explanation for reports of paranormal occurrences by one or a few handful of witnesses, but when thousands give the same essentially report, then recourse to mass hallucination afflicting thousands of witnesses as an explanation is a most self-convenient device to dispense oneself from the demand for more serious reflections.

About reports of sun dancing and earth moving, the serious and honest and non-partisan investigators must not take the sun and earth in these reports from simple people seriously as referring to the our solar star of a sun and to our planetary home of terra firma earth.

What the reports are saying in substance is that they saw a big object in the sky which they call or associate or even identify to be the sun dancing, in regard to or with reference to what they consider to be the earth.

Are their paranormal events in big modern cities? If you don't accept that there are, I respect your opinion.

Mdejess

badger3k · 07-09-2008, 06:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anduin

Quote:

Originally Posted by dr lazer blast

I didn't know wiki was catholic propaganda website....

You missed this part:

Quote:

Joe Nickell notes that, unlike McCrone, Heller and Adler are neither forensic serologists nor pigment experts, nor are they experienced in detecting art forgeries. Nickell makes reference to the 1983 conference of the International Association for Identification where forensic analyst John E. Fischer demonstrated how results similar to Heller and Adler's could be obtained from tempera paint.[41] Skeptics also cite other forensic blood tests whose results dispute the authenticity of the Shroud. "Forensic tests on the red stuff have identified it as red ocher and vermilion tempera paint."[42] Even if blood is found, "it could be the blood of some 14th century person. It could be the blood of someone wrapped in the shroud, or the blood of the creator of the shroud, or of anyone who has ever handled the shroud, or of anyone who handled the sticky tape. But even if there were blood on the shroud, that would have no bearing on the age of the shroud or on its authenticity."[42] Skeptics also note that the apparent blood flows on the shroud are unrealistically neat. Leading forensic pathologist Michael Baden observes that real blood never oozes in nice neat rivulets, it gets clotted in the hair. He concludes that "[h]uman beings don't produce this kind of pattern."[43]

:wave:

A search of CSI's website (www.csicop.org) - here (if it worked) gives more.

I still find it hard to believe that a known forgery (it was known by the Church at that time after the forger confessed) is still being touted, despite the many inconsistencies, even about the very nature or the wrappings (weave foreign to the time period, one cloth instead of two (or more)(as written about in John, IIRC), etc.
:huh:

Trout · 07-09-2008, 06:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mdejess

I call them unusual, exceptional, or extraordinary occurrences.

Yeah, that's a big part of the point here.

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What the reports are saying in substance is that they saw a big object in the sky which they call or associate or even identify to be the sun dancing, in regard to or with reference to what they consider to be the earth.

Which is absolutely not what is being said or accepted by proponents or the church. I'd give a lot more credit to people claiming they were seeing "an object" in the sky but either way, still no evidence of anything but that and certainly none for any "miracle". Even by your perspective we still have zero evidence plus a church/etc still claiming something different than a "dancing object".

Let's call a spade a spade shall we

MeinGeist · 07-09-2008, 08:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mdejess

Hallucination is one explanation for reports of paranormal occurrences by one or a few handful of witnesses, but when thousands give the same essentially report, then recourse to mass hallucination afflicting thousands of witnesses as an explanation is a most self-convenient device to dispense oneself from the demand for more serious reflections.

Where have 1000s given the same essential report of some "miracle"?

Endo · 07-09-2008, 08:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MeinGeist

Quote:

Originally Posted by mdejess

Hallucination is one explanation for reports of paranormal occurrences by one or a few handful of witnesses, but when thousands give the same essentially report, then recourse to mass hallucination afflicting thousands of witnesses as an explanation is a most self-convenient device to dispense oneself from the demand for more serious reflections.

Where have 1000s given the same essential report of some "miracle"?

That brings up another good question. Where are all these eyewitness reports of the Fatima miracle? Can we read them for ourselves?

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