Freethought & Rationalism Archive

11-03-2005, 01:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

According to Paul Tobin

Tobin's view of women's rights in the ancient world sounds unduly rosy, and I suspect that the erosion of women's property rights had other causes. I think that there was more continuity between Christianity and paganism than a sharp change in policy.

Come one Toto, you should know better than to quote third rate anti-Christian rants as evidence of anything. Tobin site is worthless.

Best wishes

Bede

Edited to add: I'll try and check A Arjava, "Women and law in late antiquity" (Oxford : Clarendon Press, 1996) at the library tomorrow.

Bede's Library - faith and reason

Toto · 11-03-2005, 11:49 AM

I know you don't like Tobin, but he seems to be summarizing the standard story, and I added a few caveats.

Women and Law in Late Antiquity

Quote:

Dr Arjava argues that from the viewpoint of most women, late antiquity was not a period of radical change. In particular, the influence of Christianity has often been considerably exaggerated. It was only after the fall of the Western empire that a new legal system and a new social world emerged.

reviewed here:

Quote:

As far as the various socio-political developments of late antiquity are concerned, A. reveals that even something as all-pervading as Christianisation had relatively little impact. This is chiefly because, by and large, Christians shared the same cultural prejudices about women as pagan legislators and classical jurists (pp. 191, 228, 256). Following Evans Grubbs (see note 1), Constantine and also Theodosius are seen not as legislators inspired by Christian teaching but as representative of the newly dominant cultural world of the provinces, as opposed to the urban aristocracy which had supplied the emperors and jurists of the early empire (pp. 168, 191, 259). Thus, changes such as the withering of classical tutela mulierum (guardianship of women) and equalisation of inheritance rights between male and female lines are seen as symptoms of vulgarisation (pp. 108, 156). However, A. does acknowledge the part played by the Christian ideal of the virtue of the ascetic life in provoking the repeal of the Augustan legislation penalising celibacy, even if he is sceptical about our ability to assess the subjective happiness of independent virgins and widows (pp. 157-64). In most respects their lives remain unchanged: political life is still a male preserve and the kind of culturally ingrained sexual inequality that led to the consideration of female marital infidelity as a crime of a much higher degree (adulterium) than its relatively trivial male equivalent (stuprum) continued unabated. Nevertheless, A. sees the legal regulations of Roman antiquity as a heyday of independence (at least as far as urban propertied women were concerned), fuelled by their control of property and facilitated by a strong centralised state structure and peaceful conditions. Thus, by the extension of Roman civil law to all provincials from A.D. 212, late antiquity saw the bringing of this benefit to a much larger section of the empire's female population (pp. 154-6, 265). In this respect he finds that women were disadvantaged by comparison in the Germanic law codes (p. 72), even if mothers and daughters gained rights and freedoms in the field of marriage (pp. 32, 40).

11-03-2005, 12:59 PM

Thanks Toto. I'll buy that.

B

lpetrich · 11-07-2005, 07:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bede

Ipetrich, if you are saying that early Christians were not great believers in women's rights, then we have no argument. If you are saying that they were more misogynist that contemporary pagans, you are clearly wrong. Unfortunately, I can't quite tell from your post.

At least you are willing to see that they were not great feminists, though proving that they were less misogynist than any pagans requires more than a little hair-splitting. And I find that would-be demonstration less-than-convincing.

Quote:

I am amused that a lot of the defence of pagan women's freedom is based on prostitutes. Get it into your heads - these women were sex slaves. ...

These "prostitutes" were hetairai, their society's approximate counterpart of high-priced call girls.

(On Xian apologists eventually trying to take vicarious credit for evolution...)

Quote:

Originally Posted by CJD

What do you mean "when"? Theories as to how the universe came to be as we now perceive it have nothing to do with how that universe originated. Evolution says nothing about creation.

I'm talking about how various Xian apologists have tried to vicariously take credit for lots and lots of Nice Things. It might be easier to see such a thing when it's someone else's religion -- check out Maurice Bucaille's claims of great scientific discoveries in the Koran.

Quote:

There are perfectly moderate positions with respect to gender issues that Christians, other religionists, and secularists all agree upon. Besides, most women (by which I mean mature, usually middle-aged and beyond) don't even agree with aggressive feminism.

And what, by comparison, is "nonaggressive" feminism?

CJD · 11-07-2005, 08:21 AM

The kind that lets men be men and women be women (for the good of society — this doesn't mean oppressive patriarchy or the withholding of certain roles because they have traditionally been filled by men; this means refusing to succumb to the androgyny that has captured 'enlightened' westerners — to the detriment of our society as a whole).

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11-03-2005, 12:59 PM	#53
Bede Guest Posts: n/a	Thanks Toto. I'll buy that. B

11-07-2005, 08:21 AM	#55
CJD Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: greater Orlando area Posts: 832	The kind that lets men be men and women be women (for the good of society — this doesn't mean oppressive patriarchy or the withholding of certain roles because they have traditionally been filled by men; this means refusing to succumb to the androgyny that has captured 'enlightened' westerners — to the detriment of our society as a whole).

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