gstafleu

In a slightly mysterious passage Jesus zapped a fig tree for not having any fruit ready. E.g.:
A little while after that the troupe passes by the fig tree again and it has withered. The question now is: why would Jesus zap the poor tree. Mark even supplies that it was out of season for figs, so zapping seems a bit excessive.

Arthur Drews, in The Christ Myth establishes a link between the Messiah and trees in general and fig trees in specific. In Isaiah we have:
This shoot is the Messiah, or a close equivalent, who will go on to do good things, for example:
So we have a link between Messiah and trees, or at least parts thereof, but what kind of tree? In good midrashic fashion we move on to Zechariah:
So Joshua is, again, a stick or branch, in this case snatched from the fire. A few verses down a link with the fig tree is established:
I propose that a link between Messiahs and fig trees has here been established. The fig tree Jesus zaps bears no fruit. A Messiah who bears no fruit is pretty useless and can be seen as a false Messiah. I therefore suggest that what Jesus zaps in the form of the fig three is one or more false prophets. These could be spokesmen from factions competing with the Mark community, or they could be something more general like the Pharisees. It is not necessary to posit that it is the whole of Israel, as after all the Messiah is supposed to save Israel, not zap it.

This leaves the question of whence the bit about out of season. This could be a reference to people who speak for god, or pretend to do so, but whose time has passed, whose season is gone. A faction like the Pharisees again comes to mind.

Gerard Stafleu

EverLastingGodStopper

Duh! http://godhatesfigs.com/

lpetrich

My pet theory on that story is that it means "Be ready for Jesus Christ -- or else!"

In any case, I found it shockingly immature when I first read it.

Koyaanisqatsi

Actually, the question is, why didn't Jesus know it was out of season for figs and why would he "zap" the tree for being what it is? We'll return to this at the end.

Small correction, but I think in keeping with your metaphor.

And realistically unfounded.

In specific? You mean, in reality, or in metaphor?

A "link?" Need I remind you of what you just wrote? "When he reached it, he found nothing but leaves, because it was not the season for figs." Isaiah specifically states that the roots will bear fruit, but Jesus finds "nothing but leaves." Aka, no fruit. He's supposed to be the fruit, yes? So why does he curse the fig tree and why wasn't there any fruit?

If this is a metaphor for Jesus, then the "miracle" would be that there was fruit out of season.



Would that be a more apt metaphor?

No, the fruit would be the Messiah according to Isaiah; not the "shoot." Isaiah is saying that the shoot will bear the fruit; the fruit being the Messiah (or, rather, a Messiah, as there were several); the "'shoot" being the preparation for Jehovah's arrival on Earth.

You're talking about Jewish messianic tradition/prophesy; not Christian revision.

What? Are you having us on? Where in any of that does it link "messiah" and "trees" that are cursed for bearing no fruit out of season?

Which is another way of saying, "we shall now cherry pick."

So, now a stick or branch "snatched from the fire" is to be cursed for bearing no fruit? It seems excessive...

So, Joshua is not Jesus, as Jesus was God and therefore it would make no sense to admonish Joshua to "walk in my ways and keep my requirements" in order to "govern" God's house. Nor would there be a "place among these standing here" that God (who is Jesus) would "give."

You are obviously no longer talking about Jesus here, unless God is an amnesiac.

Are you kidding?

No, you're not proposing that (or at least, not establishing that). You're proposing that Jesus cursed a fig tree for not bearing fruit out of season because Yahweh declared that after he removes sin, everyone will "invite his neighbor to sit under his vine and fig tree."

As you can plainly see, there is no significance between the two.

No, Jesus "zaps" the fig tree because it bears no fruit (out of season, no less, as Jesus should have known, rendering his "zapping" ridiculous).

Ok. But, again, Jesus zapped a fig tree for not bearing fruit out of season. In season, it would have borne fruit.

:huh:

If you want to continue with the metaphor, then Jesus is stating that only false prophets bear fruit out of season, yes? What is the season for "real" prophets and why doesn't Jesus "zap" them, too? Because only he is "in season?" If so, then what is the nonsense about "out of season" prophets?

And does it matter to you that Yahweh does not speak of any season in regard to either the vine or the fig tree?

Again, he zaps the fig tree for not bearing fruit, which, presumably means he's zapping the "shoot" for not bearing fruit (in your terminology). If he is the shoot in Isaiah, then who is he talking about? Who is he "zapping?" Himself? Why? Why would the "true" shoot need to "zap" anybody at all?

No, the "messiah" (one of them anyway) is supposed to "zap" Israel (and by extention, presumably, the whole globe) into the stone age in order to prepare the way for Yahweh to arrive on Earth.

Ahh, finally.

A "faction" against god?

So, let's recap, shall we? Jesus physically curses a tree for not bearing fruit when it's not supposed to as a metaphor for people whose time has passed and don't....what? Reallize that a tree that doesn't produce fruit when it's not supposed to is a metaphor for false prophets? How could that be? A tree that doesn't produce fruit when it's not supposed to is...well.....a tree.

That's what trees do; they do not produce fruit out of season. So how is "zapping" a tree for being a tree result in any kind of coherent, relevant metaphor? We're not....what....as wise as trees who do not grow fruit out of season?

Why would the "true" Messiah curse anything at all?

:huh:

If you merely respond with "the reasons given" (or something similar), we'll have issues.

Thomas II

I'm looking at Jeremiah 7 and Jeremiah 8...The whole thing...
Do you see a connection to what Jesus is getting involved with around the time of the fig tree cursing and the expulsion of the money changers from the Temple?
Is there any parallel there? Was Jesus reading Jeremiah at the time?
Look at Jeremiah 8:13 in reference to the fig tree...
What is the relation here?

Malachi151

How about Hosea:

gstafleu

I'm not sure why there would have to be a connection. What we have here is Jesus walking around. In a little while he'll go do his money changers thing, but on the way there he comes by (a) false prophet(s) whom he zaps. I don't really see a problem there.

Gerrad Stafleu

gstafleu

Given that we are talking about metaphors and metaphors about metaphors here, I'm not sure there is a difference between the two in this case .
As I read it, the messiah is the new shoot from the "stump of Jesse." The fruits he will bear are his acts which will result in good things for Israel. A fig tree without fruits is therefore a messiah who does not deliver good things for Israel, a false prophet. As for the out of season, a tree is out of season once its time for bearing fruits has passed. So the metaphor is saying that the time of these false prohets, e.g. the pharisees (prohets used in a wide sense here) has passed.

I hope I clarified that above. I think that your other comments stem from your assuming that I think the metaphor means something else than what I just stated.

Gerard Stafleu

Koyaanisqatsi

Ok.

All right.

As well as just before it is time for its fruits to grow.

Except that he curses the fig tree for not growing fruit out of season. In short, he's cursing a fig tree for being a fig tree. That's what fig trees do; they don't bear fruit out of season.

That's not at all analogous to what you're saying and is illogical at best; incoherent at worst. For it to be analogous, Jesus should have held up a fig tree branch without fruit and said something like, "False prophets are like fig trees that bear fruit out of season; you know they must be false, because fig trees only bear their fruit when it is time to bear their fruit, so any man who tries to sell you figs out of season is only trying to sell you bad figs."

Or words to that effect. No cursing needed.

:huh:

gstafleu

Ah, I see what you're getting at. "When he reached it, he found nothing but leaves, because it was not the season for figs." And then he zapped it. So you think Jesus said "It's out of season and you're still not growing fruit eh?" Zap! That is not very logical, as you I think have also noted.

My interpretation is: Jesus came upon a fig tree without fruit and said "You're season is over and you'll never bear fruit again, so who needs you." Zap! This makes more sense when we translate the allegory: Jesus came upon a false prophet and said "You're time has gone, you're never going to do anything useful, so who needs you." Zap!

Gerard Stafleu