figuer

That's so funny...

gentleexit

It's obviously catchy. Question is, who should get credit!

figuer

I mean that it's comical that someone would consider that evangelical conversion implies having access to knowledge about arcane paleo-christian texts. Not to mention the particular language used ("being saved").

Sheshbazzar

Welcome to the forum child, if you hang out here long enough, there are going to be a lot more things that you will be hearing for the first time.
Do you consider yourself to be so well educated, that the learning of new things about the complexities of history, about the Bible, and about the world you live in, is surprising?

Are you a wise man or a fool?
Enter into thy closet child, and only answer that question to and for yourself.

truth_child

shesh... thanks for the welcom no i do not consider my self to be so well educated but im stil learning and i read the kjv bible only and i dont do much searchng into the new world things

Roger Pearse

Why? The number of people with knowledge of ancient Islamic texts outside of Moslems is tiny. Who else do we expect to know about such things? Not that most do, but even fewer of everyone else.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Toto

This work is evidently a popular textbook, published in 1984. Are there no mentions of this term before that date? Perhaps "black dwarf" was Gonzalez' phrase.

I found this in The Holy Fire (or via: amazon.co.uk), (google books) written in 1957: "He was so small that his enemies called him a dwarf. He had a hook nose, a small mouth, a short reddish beard which turned up at the ends in the Egyptian fashion, and his skin was blackish. . . " but I can't find a source for that improbable combination of red hair and black skin.

In contrast: History of the Christian Church from Its Origin to the Present Time By William Maxwell Blackburn (1879) says at p. 79 that Athanasius was a "little man, rather a dwarf, crooked, lean, hardy, with a fair face. . ."

Lectures on the History of the Eastern Church By Arthur Penrhyn Stanley at p. 213 says that he was a dwarf, but

figuer

Please. Most "born again" Christians are not scholars, or will ever receive any exposure to classical material. And in relation to the Muslim comparison, most of us are historically Christian, even if presently atheistic, so these things are part of our historical tradition, even if we are no longer "saved". So yes, it is funny that anyone would thing that an evangelical conversion would imply access to knowledge of such subjects.

gentleexit

Google books is a boon here. Most 19th century descriptions (in English) seem to come from Dean Stanley (lectures on the eastern church), the well thought of dean of westminster. His words echo through journals for farmers as well as churchmen. "History" was popular then!

"What his own race and lineage may have been it is difficult to determine We know that he himself wrote and spoke in Greek but he also was able to converse in Coptic His personal appearance throws but little light on this question He was of very small stature a dwarf rather than a man so we know from the taunt of Julian, but as we are assured by Gregory Nazianzen of almost angelic beauty of face and expression. To this tradition adds that he had a slight stoop in his figure a hooked nose and small mouth a short beard which spread out into large whiskers and light auburn hair. This last characteristic has been found on the heads of Egyptian mummies and therefore is compatible with a pure Egyptian descent His name might seem to indicate a Grecian parentage but the case of Antony who was an undoubted Copt shows that this cannot be relied upon"

I don't think the 19th century made an explicit reference to enemies [plural] calling him "black" + "dwarf". But leap a little and you could get this from the above.

By 1914, The Romance of Preaching by Charles Silvester Horne has the "enemy" Julian ...
"One of Athanasius enemies wrote about him that he was a dwarf and no man"

Turn enemy Julian into enemies. Leverage mummy reasoning to make him pure Egyptian (so dark). But, but who made the leap? And why was he so credible? When - between the 1st war and the fifties?

Casper

Actually not so improbable. The egyptian side of my family are on the short side, fairly dark with decidedly african facial features, eyes ranging from brown to hazle, and frizzy hair that is surprisingly auburn in tint, made more prominent because of both the dark skin and because of the use of henna, especially among the women, as a hair care product. To a stranger they would definitely look "black" by western standards and those of my generation have experienced some discrimination due to this assumption (not that the truth would matter to those discriminationg, only change the epithets).


From the description of Athy's beard, above, it would seem that he was at least somewhat style conscious in his grooming habits and it would not be surprising if he used henna as a conditioner and maybe as an intentional coloring agent, especially to mask grey. Henna can make white or silver hair into an almost feiry red. Of course the main purpose is to moisturize and condition tight frizzy hair which tends to break off easily.

They are mostly all muslim now but their ancestry has a coptic element, which supposedly has some responsibility for the non-arab features. At least according to family tradition.