Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

That promise of many offspring had already been made to Abram long before the statement of Gen 15:6. Thus this statement was not contingent upon Abram here hearing this promise. He had already heard it years before, way back in Gen 12:3 & 13:16

Gen 15:6 is only written acknowledgment of an already long existing relationship, not as though that it was only at that particular point in time Abram finally decided that his Elohim was righteous.

Abram from his first introduction to us in Gen 12:1 of the Scriptural narrative is presented as a person of integrity and one obedient to the voice of Yahweh that speaks to him saying; 'Get you out of your country, and from your kindred, and from your father's house, unto a land that I will shew you:
And I will make of you a great nation, and I will bless you, and make your name great; and you shall be a blessing:
And I will bless them that bless you, and curse him that curse you: and in you shall all families of the earth be blessed.'

There is no reason to expect that Abram would have responded to or followed directions from a voice or Elohim that he accounted as being unrighteous or unworthy of his trust.
Abram trusts the words of promise that Yahweh has spoken to him, even above the words of his own father, of his family, above all of the priests of the city of Ur, and of Babylon.
From the very first Abram trusts the words of Yahweh his Elohim to guide all his steps in the right direction.
Abram sets forth on his journey and walks by faith in the voice of Yahweh his Elohim that guides him on the way.


Lest it should sound to much like I am preaching. No I do not accept that this is any actual historical account. It is an ancient narrative dealing with the ethical issues of trust and of having foresight, and of confidently acting on ones personal ethical convictions. Even in the face of great and opposing traditions and powers.
That is what separates any true 'Hebrew' from the mass opinions held by those around him. The guts to turn ones back on the glories of 'Babylon' the present age and situations, and on family pressures, and popular opinions, and to walk confidently directed by that inner Voice that speaks into ones conscience saying;
'This is the Way. Walk ye in it.'

Originally Posted by Mat

From a religious Jewish perspective the background /reason for Avram's immediate trust and obedience in Hashem is because off the ten trials that Hashem placed him in such as him being thrown in the fire by Nimrod because he damaged and rejected his father's gods which is in midrashim such as Bereshit Rabba and Sefer Ha Yashar as Pikrei Avot says

עשרה נסיונות נתנסה אברהם אבינו, ועמד בכולם, להודיע כמה חיבתו של אברהם אבינו.
Ten trials and tribulations Avraham Avinu our Father went through and Avraham in all them succeded to make know the love of Avraham Avinu
(Mishnah Pikrei Avot 5:3)

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

Thank you Mat. Although most readers here will not be familiar with, and perhaps quite skeptical of that Mishnah story, it not being among their accepted Texts.

Originally Posted by Iskander

Rashi, the Ramban, Maimonides, Hirsch ... they all say the same thing. There is no difference in their interpretation of v 6. Do you agree?

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

Reviewing the Hebrew text of Genesis 15:6

והאמן ביהוה ויחשבה לו צדקה׃

v'ha'amen ba'Yahweh v'ya'chashaba l'o tsĕdaqah:

'And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.'(KJV)

The traditional understanding is that the LORD ('Yahweh') imputes Abraham's belief as an indication of Abraham's righteousness. And this clearly how the 'Christian' authors understood and employed this text.
The hang up here which you are pointing out, is the identification of whom is the 'he' and the 'him' being referred to;

Is this 'him' -Yahweh who is accounting Abraham to be righteous? (the traditional reading)

OR is it as you are suggesting, that it is Abraham who is that 'him' who is finding the LORD (Yahweh) to be righteous?

Based strictly upon the linguistic construction of Gen. 15:6 the answer would be somewhat ambiguous, and persuasion as to the intent could swing either way depending on ones predilections.
But when the verse looked at in the overall context of the entire Yahweh-Abraham relationship, it is clear that the respect was mutual.
Yahweh honors Abraham as being righteous among men and Abraham in turn honors Yahweh as being the righteous Elohim.
Thus Genesis 15:6 does not need to be held to indicate either the one or the other reading, as though they were in opposition.
As each imputed or recognized the righteous nature of the other.

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

We do not have every writing that was written during those 3000 years, nor access to every argument that was ever made.
'Paul's' is simply one that survived, it is no indication that his was the first such argument ever to be made.

Both the Promises contained in The Torah, and in the Prophets are clear that the GENTILES -as Gentiles- would be reconciled to Yahweh -without any necessity of first becoming circumcised Jews. That is without the obligations of obedience to specifically Jewish Laws.
The 'Olam ha'ba' 'The Age to Come' and 'The Kingdom of Elohim' was -IS- to be filled with Gentiles praising the Elohim of Abraham -the Father of many Gentiles, the 'goyim' > the Nations.
A lot of JEWS recognized and acknowledged this -Scriptural FACT- long before Paul was even born. These were the ones that knew better than to try to force circumcision or Laws made specifically for JEWS upon the Gentiles that lived among them. The ger toshavim were to live as gentiles and unmolested.
NOT be forced to become circumcised wherby they would no longer be 'gentiles' but Law keeping Jews in a violation of the Promises.

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

The fullness of Law of Yahweh was not revealed until the time of Moses according to Scripture.
Righteous men before this time were justified by Yahweh without the obligations of Moses' Laws.

Abram was obedient in that he was willing to obey the voice of Yahweh, even to the point of offering up Isaac his only son on the altar.
This was not in obedience to any Law that he had received, but rather in sure confidence that the same voice that had guided him, would see to it that his son Isaac would survive.
He was so tested and his faith in Yahweh was so proven unshakable. Therefore Yahweh blessed him. Not for obedience to the dictates and details of a Jewish Law still yet to be revealed. Abraham was justified by faith in Yahweh his Elohim, and found to be righteous by Yahweh without the works of the Law.

Originally Posted by sotto voce

The idea of justification by faith, from the events of John 6 onward, has been met with negative personal reactions, from simple rejection to the most extremely violent attempts to suppress it; as well as the most ingenious attempts to by-pass it. So it seems to have merit just on those accounts. It would appear that 'all the king's horses, and all the king's men' have been insufficient to overcome this interpretation.

Originally Posted by sotto voce

The idea of justification by faith, from the events of John 6 onward, has been met with negative personal reactions, from simple rejection to the most extremely violent attempts to suppress it; as well as the most ingenious attempts to by-pass it. So it seems to have merit just on those accounts. It would appear that 'all the king's horses, and all the king's men' have been insufficient to overcome this interpretation.