Freethought & Rationalism Archive

mountainman · 01-12-2013, 07:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

Tom Holland in Shadow of the Sword discusses how religion then was very fluid, you did change your gods when you went to another town, and how the formalising into fixed identities is later.

The endless procession and pantheons of gods were attended by therapeutae everywhere until Nicaea.

After Nicaea the only god to be attended was the Jesus god.

Quote:

The question then is what is Philo describing? Is he talking about a Jewish sect of the Greek theraputae? Arguably there is a very strong case for that.

If his audience is the Greek community of Alexandria, with a small minority Jewish presence, why would he not be referring to the elephant in the room, namely the Greek therapeutae themselves?

How many Jewish temples were there compared to the mass of pagan temples?

Quote:

How Jewish is Philo? Is he actually very Greek influenced? His use of logos points to this.

How Christianized is Philo is another question. The source known as Philo has traditionally received "extra special attention" from the 4th and subsequent century Christian preservers.

EJW

Quote:

Originally Posted by Emil Schürer

This composition has, since the time of Eusebius, enjoyed special approbation in the Christian Church, Christian monks being almost universally recognised in the 'Therapeutae' here described and glorified. The likeness is indeed surprising; but for that very reason the suspicion is also well founded, that the author's design was under the mask of Philo to recommend Christian monachism.

But apart from this there are other suspicious elements, by reason of which even such critics do not regard the Therapeutae as representing a Christian, but as a Jewish ideal of life, have denied thea uthorship of Philo. Upon the ground of the identification of the Therapeutae with Christian monks, Lucius, after the precedent of Grätz and Jost, has declared this composition spurious. It is by his thorough and methodical investigation that the spuriousness of its authorship has been definitely decided." (The Literature of the Jewish People in the Time of Jesus, pp. 357-358)

outhouse · 01-12-2013, 08:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Quote:

Originally Posted by outhouse

As far as Galen, please, get real.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galen

at 16 he began studies at the prestigious local sanctuary or Asclepieum dedicated to Asclepius, god of medicine, as a θεραπευτής (therapeutes, or attendant) for four years.

This shows the greek meaning of "attendant" for the proper context of this word in use at this specific time.

Not a sect of Hellenistic Jewish Abrahamic god worshipping people, we know very little about.

You appear to be fixated on finding a sect of Hellenistic Jewish Abrahamic god worshipping people - called therapeutae.

I am pointing out that there existed a sect of Hellenistic Jewish Abrahamic god worshipping people - called therapeutae - associated with the ubiquitous temple network of the healing god Asclepius.

These people existed in large numbers in the Roman Empire.

They were pagan.

Just the opposite.

You have shown that you are fixated on inventing a Hellenistic cult, based on quote mining and dreams, and a blatant case of poor translation of "attendant".

What do you have besides a dream and a attendant?

Because we have a eye witness, one Philo in the first century who states they were a Hellenistic Jewish sect. And you have not given any examples with credibility of why later redactors would do such.

mountainman · 01-12-2013, 09:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by outhouse

You have shown that you are fixated on inventing a Hellenistic cult, based on quote mining and dreams, and a blatant case of poor translation of "attendant".

The inference runs like this .....

(1) Alexandria was full of pagan temples.

(2) The people who staffed these temples were the attendants of the pagans gods - the therapeutae. (See for example Asclepius).

I don't need to invent a Hellenistic cult. Ask an archaeologist.

The Hellenistic cults were all over the fucking place.

I don't need to imagine them or dream them up like the Christian cult.

You just need to take your Christian glasses off to see them in the empire alongside your transcendental Christian cult.

Quote:

.... we have a eye witness, one Philo in the first century who states they were a Hellenistic Jewish sect.

A known Christianized source.

Quote:

And you have not given any examples with credibility of why later redactors would do such.

You mean Eusebius who would have us believe they were early representatives of that great and transcendent "Nation of Christians"?

outhouse · 01-12-2013, 09:52 AM

So what your saying is, you have nothing!

And we should use your imagination over a eyewitness who lived at the time.

Chili · 01-12-2013, 12:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

You just need to take your Christian glasses off to see them in the empire alongside your transcendental Christian cult.

//
You mean Eusebius who would have us believe they were early representatives of that great and transcendent "Nation of Christians"?

You should take your Christian glasses off because Catholics are not Christian, never were and never will be either; in the same way that Jews are not Christian, and if they ever do . . . the will no longer be Jew and not a Catholic either.

And what do you mean 'nation'? Catholicism is universal and big enough in scope to take the entire world under it's wings except Christian-ity that in Catholicism is an abomination and the reason why their Jesus died to also put and end to them.

outhouse · 01-12-2013, 03:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

The Hellenistic cults were all over the fucking place.

Yes they were. But to say there was such a cult, we would need to know something about them, and in this case we know of Asclepius.

But not anything of your imgainary sect.

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I don't need to imagine them or dream them up like the Christian cult.

Another statement you have zero refferences too. Christianity clearly evolved, so you seem to particularly lost on this one.

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You just need to take your Christian glasses off to see them in the empire alongside your transcendental Christian cult.

None of your buisiness but I am a strong atheist.

mountainman · 01-12-2013, 10:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by outhouse

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

outhouse - please look of the meaning of "quote mining" before you use it in every post.

Quote mining is the deceitful tactic of taking quotes out of context in order to make them seemingly agree with the quote miner's viewpoint.

You and huller have accused me of quote mining without providing any examples for discussion.

Provide the examples or retract your bullshit claim.

Quote:

So the question then remains?

Was the foundation of christianity taken out of context by OP, I say yes.

What do you say?

[and we flat caught MM and provided links showing a mistranslation]

WTF are you yabbering about?

What mistranslation?

Chili · 01-12-2013, 10:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by outhouse

None of your buisiness but I am a strong atheist.

Just to let you know that it is not good for you to be a strong of anything untill you know, . . . and to deny is not to know.

outhouse · 01-12-2013, 11:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chili

Quote:

Originally Posted by outhouse

None of your buisiness but I am a strong atheist.

Just to let you know that it is not good for you to be a strong of anything untill you know, . . . and to deny is not to know.

I know enough about man making and creating deities, and their evolution afterwards, to make my own choices.

Chili · 01-13-2013, 06:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by outhouse

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chili

Quote:

Originally Posted by outhouse

None of your buisiness but I am a strong atheist.

Just to let you know that it is not good for you to be a strong of anything untill you know, . . . and to deny is not to know.

I know enough about man making and creating deities, and their evolution afterwards, to make my own choices.

No problem, but just so you know that they are 'choices' you make.

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01-12-2013, 09:52 AM	#64
outhouse Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Auburn ca Posts: 4,269	So what your saying is, you have nothing! And we should use your imagination over a eyewitness who lived at the time.

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