vsop44

Tholzel , I was recalling what I had read a while back if you want more information just google ben panthera you ' ll have something to occupy your mind for some time . starting with this site , go to the chapter : the evidence of the rabbis

http://www.newciv.org/nl/newslog.php...035-000043.htm

enjoy .

Tholzel

Here is the gist of it:

"The Talmud writers mention Jesus' name 20 times and quite specifically documents that he was born an illegitimate son of a Roman soldier called Panthera, nicknamed "the Panther". Panthera's existence was confirmed by the discovery of a mysterious tombstone at Bingerbrück in Germany. The engraving etched in the headstone reads: Tiberius Julius Abdes Panthera, an archer, native of Sidon, Phoenicia, who in 9 AD was transferred to service in Rhineland [Germany].10

This inscription adds fuel to the theory that Jesus was the illegitimate son of Mary and the soldier Panthera. Classical scholar Professor Morton Smith of Columbia University, USA, describes the tombstone as possibly "our only genuine relic of the holy family".11 In many Jewish references, Jesus is often referred to as "ben Panthera", ben meaning "son of". However cautious one ought to be in accepting anything about Jesus from Jewish sources, in the matter of Jesus ben Panthera the writers seem more consistent than the men we now call the Church fathers.

Scholars over the centuries have discussed at length why Jesus was so regularly called ben Panthera. Adamantius Origen, an early Christian historian and Church father (185-251), recorded the following verses about Mary from the research records of a highly regarded second-century historian and author named Celsus (c. 178): Mary was turned out by her husband, a carpenter by profession, after she had been convicted of unfaithfulness. Cut off by her spouse, she gave birth to Jesus, a bastard; that Jesus, on account of his poverty, was hired out to go to Egypt; that while there he acquired certain (magical) powers which Egyptians pride themselves on possessing.12

Later, in passage 1:32, Origen supports the Jewish records and confirms that the paramour of the mother of Jesus was a Roman soldier called Panthera, a name he repeats in verse 1:69. Some time during the 17th century, those sentences were erased from the oldest Vatican manuscripts and other codices under Church control.13

The traditional Church writings of St Epiphanius, the Bishop of Salamis (315-403), again confirm the ben Panthera story, and his information is of a startling nature. This champion of Christian orthodoxy and saint of Roman Catholicism states: Jesus was the son of a certain Julius whose surname was Panthera.14

This is an extraordinary declaration, simply recorded in ancient records as accepted Church history. The ben Panthera legend was so widespread that two early stalwarts of the Christian Church inserted the name in the genealogies of Jesus and Mary as a matter of fact. Enlarging on that statement, this passage from the Talmud: Rabbi Shiemon ben Azzai has said: I found in Jerusalem a book of genealogies; therein was written that Such-an-one [Jesus] is the bastard son of an adulteress.15

"Such-an-one" was one of the well-known substitutes for Jesus in the Talmud, as has been proved and admitted on either side. Shiemon ben Azzai flourished at the end of the first century and beginning of the second. He was one of four famous Rabbis who, according to Talmudic tradition, "entered Paradise". He was a Chassid (the pious Jews of Palestine), most probably an Essene, and remained a celibate and rigid ascetic until his death.

The story of Mary's pregnancy by a Roman soldier also appears in the sacred book of the Moslems, the Koran. It states that "a full-grown man" forced his attentions on Mary, and in her fear of the disgrace that would follow she left the area and bore Jesus in secret. This story was supported in the Gospel of Luke, with the description of the departure of Joseph and Mary from their home prior to the birth. Rape was a common event in Palestine during the Roman occupation, and soldiers were notorious for their treatment of young women. It would be unthinkable for Mary to admit such an event had occurred, for under the Law of Moses a betrothed virgin who had sex with any man during the period of her betrothal was to be stoned to death by the men of the city (Deut. 22:21). Simply put, Mary faced the death penalty unless she could prove her innocence.16 "

My question: Why, if he knocked up Mary around 2BC was he transferred to Germany in 9AD?

Toto

I think this source (The Bible Fraud) goes overboard on the extent of any agreement that Jesus was the son of a Roman named Panthera.

From here:

And quoted here

edited to add:

another source says that "Pantheras� (Greek, 'panther', 'leopard', whence 'hunter') was popular as a personal name of Macedonian soldiers in the armies of the Seleucids."

vsop44

http://www.askwhy.co.uk/christianity...html#Pantheras
Since the birth stories are accepted as late additions to the gospels, Jesus did not have the title, “Son of the Virgin�, until late in the second century of Christianity, and the Pagan pun on the title could not have arisen before, unless it was not a pun but a genuine tradition. The tombstone of a soldier was found in Bingerbrück, Germany, inscribed:

Tiberius Julius Abdes Pantera of Sidon, aged 62, a soldier of 40 years’ service, of the first cohort of archers, lies here.

To answer your question , for the same reason occupying forces do it nowadays with soldiers accused of this type of crime , to defuse a tense situation and get him to safety before he can be judged .for all we know he might have been transferred elsewhere before being sent to germany in 9 AD , Since Jesus birth is mentionned in some book as early as 9 BC , 18 years might have passed between the conception of Jesus and Ben Panthera being dispatched to Germany .

Toto

Where is Jesus' birth mentioned "as early as 9 BC?" I don't know of any book that records a firm birth date for Jesus' birth; the late-edition birth narratives in Matthew and Luke can be used to calculate two different dates, but those birth narratives are theological fictions.

We have no good evidence to assign any particular date to Jesus birth, and no good reason to assume that a particular archer with the common nick-name of Panther was the father of Jesus or was removed from Palestine to defuse a tense situation in 9 CE which is not recorded in any secular history and cannot be constructed out of the Biblical narratives.

This is all fantasy, but Dan Brown got to be a millionaire using similar fantasies, so who am I to complain.

vsop44

http://www.trivia-library.com/c/biog...as-he-born.htm
The year of his birth has been placed by different authorities all the way from 4 B.C. to 20 B.C. Many suppose that Jesus was born at least two years before Herod's death.

The Date of the Nativity in Luke
It is indisputable that Luke dates the birth of Jesus to 6 AD It is also indisputable
that ... Only pure speculation can set the date between 9 and 4 BC, ...
http://www.infidels.org/library/mode...quirinius.html - 101k - 24 Jul 2005 - Cached - Similar pages

In fact I read that Jesus story is based on the life of a Joshua who was born in Galilee around 100 BC .....

But since The NT is a bunch of hogwash why should we believe anything it says is true in the first place ?

premjan

If the virgin birth story was invented to protect Mary's honor (or life) it is actually kind of sweet...

andrewcriddle

Origen is describing the 'fables' recounted by Celsus an anti-Christian polemicist. He is certainly not giving his own view.
IIUC Epiphanius claimed that Panther/Panthera was the name of Jacob the father of Joseph according to Matthew 1:15-16.
'Such-an-one' in Rabbinic writings sometimes means Jesus sometimes doesn't. Most scholars (Jewish and Christian) do not see a reference to Jesus here.
The Quran says Andrew Criddle

andrewcriddle

This first occurs in late (5th century CE) parts of the Babylonian Talmud it has no claim to be regarded as historical tradition.

Andrew Criddle

vsop44

where is the historical tradition in jesus' story outside the NT ?

let me rephrase that :

this first occurs in late 1st century CE , parts of what was to become the NT
it has no claim to be regarded as historical tradition .