dr lazer blast

except they were never able to put up death counts as high as atheist dictators, which was the point.

Of course, the majority of Christians still to this day will deny that Hitler was a Christian. Who would want to endorse such a monster as "one of their own"? Oh especially Christians, as no Christian would ever consider for a moment agreeing with the notion of genocides to terminate an entire people. Men, women, children and even unborn fetuses.
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as I explained before, there is evidence that goes both ways regarding hitler being an atheist or a christian, which is why he is usually left out during religious debates. I can easily say "of course the majority of atheist still to this day will deny that hitler was an atheist" with just as much clout and evidence backing my statement as you. Sorry but as of now, scholors and historians are divided on the subject as tehre is evidence that support both sides.

you taking the bible out of context and comparing that to hitler is fallacious and a huge leap in logic that can only be taken at face value. I suggest you try again.

GenesisNemesis

Which is its main purpose and how it's been used ever since its conception. Anyways, I just had to comment on that little bit.

Sabine Grant

serfs, impoverished, used, exploited by the "bon Roi Saint Louis". You need to know that we do not apply your historical revisionism in our schools and universities in France.
You are wrong. The death count in France alone caused by religious wars alone triggered and led by a sleuth of despotic monarchs all claiming their legitimacy from God (and specifically the Christian deity) surpasses the deaths counts generated under the Stalinist regime and Maoist regime. To add the millions who died (again) of starvation and imposed destitution resulting from the alliance of the Church with a succession of despotic monarchs all claiming their legitimacy from the Christian god. That is a constant within the history of French monarchies from the Middle Ages to the 18th century. No need to look any further to contemplate with disgust the long term effects of despotic regimes all claiming their service and devotion to your deity.

You made very ignorant statements about French history. You got caught and I detailed why in my previous post. Case closed.



You presented no such "clout" and "evidence". You made a claim as if you were educated on that topic. I strongly suspect you are not as educated as you want to appear to be. I present as ultimate evidence the document which reveals to the reader the actual mental world of Hitler: Mein Kampf. I will take you on in a Formal Debate on an analysis of Mein Kampf as evidence of Hitler's sources of inspiration, to emphasize Martin Luther's stances. Be prepared to present counter arguments rather than rehashing pre digested claims over and over again.

Non. The evidence is overwhelmingly on the side of Hitler having relied on Christian ideologies to concoct his final solution. Remember, I am equipped to prove it. You rehashing "scholars and historians are divided on the subject as there is evidence that support both sides" will not do. You will need to do your homework.

Ah... the usual riposte being "you are taking the Bible out of context". What a pathetic response.Very common among apologists who detain a self given license to avoid dealing with the written evidence of their deity ordering genocides.While declaring the massacred people, "evil".

Your opinions do not constitute an argument. The reality remains that the deity you worship has committed crimes against humanity while his followers pursue to sentence to death the "unsaved". And a death to be followed by eternal cremation. No different from the hell 6 millions of Jews experienced. Interesting that your deity wishes "the wicked" to be consumed in a "lake of fire" eternally as Hitler wished for those he had labeled wicked vermin, to be consumed in the crematories of Buchenwald and Auschwitz.

As far as mentioning "logic", I would suggest you remind yourself that the Bible is void of any logic.

Both Hitler and your deity share the same characteristics :
-psycho manipulation
-use of threats
- repression and punishment.
- promise of glory and victory
- dreams of grandiosity manifested through a persistent abusive personality.
-despotic leadership associated with the notion of devout disciples.
- use of violence, torture, physical pain.
-sociopathic response to human sufferings.
-demands of loyalty and devotion.

And that is supposed to be a proof of Hitler being an atheist? Time for another lecture on history :
The Fuhrer married Eva Braun at the eve of their completed suicide, He had already drawn plans to absorb cyanide on April 30th. Having tasked his personal physician to test the poison on Blondie. It was a brief ceremony with Bormann and Goebbels in attendance and his faithful butler . Linge. As the Red Army was nearing the Old Reich Chancellery where the Bunker was located, it could not be expected that Hitler would evaluate having a religious ceremony to be of up most importance. Especially considering that the Bunker was his final retreat with only a select group of people as its residents.Among them, the Goebbels with their 6 children, Martin Bormann, several military members, his butler , his private physician and private SS bodyguards.

No one would conclude considering such circumstances that the absence of a religious ceremony is to be interpreted as meaning that Hitler was an atheist. If I recall, Eva was dressed in black. Not at all a wedding celebration. Rather a symbolic gesture from Hitler to seal both his life and death with Eva. And indeed, they were husband and wife for less than 48 hours. As they both knew at the time of their vows that death was imminent.

Please, if you are going to mention alleged proofs, make sure to provide the historical context and preferably an accurate one.

Gawen

Most interesting discussion.
I would enjoy reading a debate between Sabine and dr. blast on Hitlers religiosity.


Most excellent and should be very sobering point.

thentian

OK, thanks!

Meanwhile, I have read up on King Leopolds activities in Belgian Congo. Various sources give different numbers:

British diplomat Roger Casement's 1904 report estimated the death toll at 3 million for the first twelve years of Léopold's regime.
Investigative reporter and author Peter Forbath estimated at least 5 million deaths.
Adam Hochschild in his book (King Leopold's Ghost) estimated 10 million.
The Encyclopedia Britannica gives a total population decline of 12 million to 22 million. (Eight million survivors from a starting population of 20-30 mill)
Wikipedia says "most sources" estimate about 10 million.

I think France and Portugal may also have some skeletons in their colonial closets. French Sudan, maybe?

Sabine Grant

Ex French Algeria, quite a few skeletons. Such as the General Massu ordering entire homes to be blown up even as innocent civilians (such as children) were spotted inside the home.(In Algers).

Hyndis

Using absolute numbers will almost always skew the body count towards recent events simply due to the fact that the world's population has ballooned in the last century. There were around 2 billion people in 1900, and today we're closing in on 7 billion.

Rather than just going for absolute numbers, percentage of the population might make for a more fair figure, which would factor in the overall increased population. After all, one cannot kill 6 million of one's own people if there are only 5 million people living in said country at that particular time.

dr lazer blast

I noticed that Sabine Grant has made some glaring errors in his post. He seems to take all of the monarch of france, england etc death counts and comparing them to just 1 or 2 atheist, which is a false comparison. You can't take X amount of monarchs death counts of a whole country and compare it to just 1 or 2 atheist dictators.


A single glance at history which Sabine here seems to be some what savy in, should point out that ever since 392 when theodosius established christianity as the official state religion of the empire until 1453 which was the fall of byzantium there has been, roughly, about 1700 monarchs. These monarchs are innocent by no means, there has been plenty of bloodshed on the theist side, however if you put it into perspective (which is what I was trying to do) and look at the single fact that atheist dictators (since you wanted to start comparing all monarchs then I'll compare all atheist dictators) killed more people in a smaller time frame.

The body count between 1917 and 2007 is 148 million dead, in 90 years, at the hands of like 50 atheists, and in the span of 1061 years with 1700 (roughly) monarchs we have the 30 years war, crusades, inquisition, which barely goes past like 8 million. As I said before, you are going against the evidence, atheism has a bigger body count in a shorter period of time, then christianity does.


I did present the evidence (not all of the evidence), it was just later on in the post, and I would love to debate you, but seeing as I have been banned rather unjustly from the formal debate forum, such a debate cannot take place.




quite a statment which shows your ignorance of the bible and your ignorance of logic.

"Paul, an apostle"

that is a logical statement, heres another one, "Aim for perfection"



I believe you set it best here

and I see a startiling lack of evidence to support your opinions, specifically scripture backing your assertions about God.





I noticed you totally ignored the other things I said, it wasn't just the wedding but it was the lack of any of anything religious at his wedding combined with the other things I said that you decided to ignore and not respond too. joseph gobbels in his diary saying that hitler regards christianity as a symptom of decay, and albert sper said he said “You see, its been our misfortune to have the wrong religion. Why didn't we have the religion of the Japanese, who regard sacrifice for the Fatherland as the highest good? The Mohammedan religion too would have been more compatible to us than Christianity. why did it have to be Christianity with its meekness and flabbiness?"
like I said evidence for both sides.

Noe Sandoval

And your still ignoring, among a large multitude of things, the fact that you have no way of demonstrating that Stalin's atheism made him do what he did. Further more you've done nothing to discredit my stance that his communism was to blame.

I'm amazed that you could read the posts in this thread and yet still say such things.

Triple Six

No, this is precisely why most christians hope it will go away.

FACT 1. Hitler was born and raised a catholic.
FACT 2. According to the catholic church, once a catholic always a catholic. This is very useful to them when trying to inflate membership numbers and coerce funding concessions and such out of governments.
FACT 3. Hitler never renounced his catholic faith nor has the catholic church excommunicated him. Even if they renounced his membership now as a grubby PR stunt it wouldn't alter the fact that Hitler died a catholic.

Other such lovely people as Himmler and Goebbels also had a catholic upbringing.

So it would be more than fair to talk about the christian nazi regime, especially as you keep referring to "atheist Stalin". Furthermore despite all your whining and bleating about the lack of evidence from atheist posters you still haven't produced a shred of evidence yourself that atheism in any way provided the plans or motivation for Stalin to commit his atrocities, nothing. Stalin smoked a pipe, however I wouldn't be so retarded, dishonest or hypocritical to constantly label him the "pipe smoking" Stalin as a crude attempt to slur and demonize all pipe smokers.