Freethought & Rationalism Archive

John Kesler · 02-15-2006, 07:44 AM

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Originally Posted by Reena

I am also curious about how Christianity came to be, what moved people to believe in a crucified savior, resurrection from the dead, the idea of God becoming man etc.

Resurrection from the dead is explicitly mentioned in Daniel 12:2-3:

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2 Many of those who sleep in the dust of the eartha shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 Those who are wise shall shine like the brightness of the sky, and those who lead many to righteousness, like the stars forever and ever.

The sacrificial system of the O.T., as well as the belief in vicarious atonement (see 2 Samuel 21) and the "noble death" (2 Maccabees 6:27-28) provided paradigms for viewing the death of Jesus:

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2 Samuel 21:3-9; 14
3 David said to the Gibeonites, "What shall I do for you? How shall I make expiation, that you may bless the heritage of Yahweh?" 4 The Gibeonites said to him, "It is not a matter of silver or gold between us and Saul or his house; neither is it for us to put anyone to death in Israel." He said, "What do you say that I should do for you?" 5 They said to the king, "The man who consumed us and planned to destroy us, so that we should have no place in all the territory of Israel-- 6 let seven of his sons be handed over to us, and we will impale them before Yahweh at Gibeon on the mountain of Yahweh." The king said, "I will hand them over."
7 But the king spared Mephibosheth, the son of Saul's son Jonathan, because of the oath of Yahweh that was between them, between David and Jonathan son of Saul. 8 The king took the two sons of Rizpah daughter of Aiah, whom she bore to Saul, Armoni and Mephibosheth; and the five sons of Merabd daughter of Saul, whom she bore to Adriel son of Barzillai the Meholathite; 9 he gave them into the hands of the Gibeonites, and they impaled them on the mountain before Yahweh. The seven of them perished together. They were put to death in the first days of harvest, at the beginning of barley harvest. 14...After that, God heeded supplications for the land.

Notice that "expiation" was made by impaling people on a mountain "before Yahweh."

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2 Maccabees 6:27-28
27 Therefore, by bravely giving up my [Eleazar's] life now, I will show myself worthy of my old age 28 and leave to the young a noble example of how to die a good death willingly and nobly for the revered and holy laws." When he had said this, he went at once to the rack.

mikem · 02-15-2006, 11:17 AM

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Originally Posted by Diogenes the Cynic

No, but he did suffer on behalf of humans which I think is notable and unusual.

I think the significant difference between the suffering of Christ and that of Prometheus is that Prometheus suffering was IMPOSED on him, and it was a punishment for his own crime; the New Testament view is that Christ WILLINGLY undertook to suffer and be punished for our crimes.

andrewcriddle · 02-15-2006, 03:04 PM

Although it is possibly dependent to some extent on Christian ideas one parallel is Odin's offering of himself to gain wisdom for the good of the world.

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Wounded I hung on a windswept gallows tree
For nine long nights,
Pierced by a spear, pledged to Odin,
Sacrificed, myself to myself.
The wisest know not from whence spring
The roots of that ancient wood.
No bread was I given,
No mead was I given.
I perceived the depths: With a loud cry
I seized the runes, then from the tree I fell.

Andrew Criddle

Chili · 02-15-2006, 03:29 PM

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Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

Although it is possibly dependent to some extent on Christian ideas one parallel is Odin's offering of himself to gain wisdom for the good of the world.

Andrew Criddle

Lovely lines Andrew.

"Downward I peered
to ruins applied myself
wailing learned of them
then fell down thence.

Chris Weimer · 02-15-2006, 06:04 PM

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Originally Posted by Diogenes the Cynic

How many other gods suffered physically to save mankind (granted I'm shifting the definition of "salvation" to something a little more basic)?

Well, the nephilim seem to parallel the fate of Promethus far better than Christ. In both Prometheus' case and in the case of the nephilim, the suffering is punishment, but not in Christ's (as mikem already noticed).

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No, but neither did the proto-Jewish Israelites when they initiated animal sacrifice. I put "sin" in quotations because I'm talking about a more primative level of sacrificial appeasement. The crucifixion, when you get right down to it, still has its roots in the same kind of primal thinking.

Yeah, it does. It does seem to fit far better with Jewish thinking than Hellenic thinking...

The info on Prometheus looks accurate enough.

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I'm of the opinion that it's more Greek than Jewish- at least by the time it gets to full blown Paulinism. There are several parallels to Dionysus, for instance (including a death and resurrection).

Sorry to be on the lazy side, but could I have a primary source for the Dionysian resurrection? The article "Dying and Rising Gods" from the Encyclopedia of Religion does not even list him there. I'm curious on where we're extracting this information from.

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Off the top of my head, I can think of some vague parallels in Hinduism (was it Vishnu who drank the snake venom from off the top of the elixir of life?) but nothing really on point. It wouldn't surprise me at all to find something, though. Hinduism has so damn many stories that something is bound to come close.

I'm really looking for something that would be totally isolated from Christianity and its influence. As I recall, there's an argument for Christian thinking on Hindu religion. Not a very strong argument, but its there nonetheless. Anything in Native American, African, Australian, Polynesian, or Far Eastern religions that might suggest something like this?

Also, I see Andrew Criddle's point to Odin...

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I agree. I think a lot of classical mythology is worth discussion in itself without trying to relate everything to the JM argument.

So when will I see you on my forum then? I'd love another classicist.

Diogenes the Cynic · 02-15-2006, 09:02 PM

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Originally Posted by Chris Weimer

Well, the nephilim seem to parallel the fate of Promethus far better than Christ. In both Prometheus' case and in the case of the nephilim, the suffering is punishment, but not in Christ's (as mikem already noticed).

But the Nephilim didn't suffer on behalf of human beings. I think the god who suffers or sacrifices to give something to humans is the pertinent precurser. Prometheus suffered because he cared about humans. I also disagree that his suffering wasn't willing. He at least knew that there was a huge RISK of punishment and he took that risk willingly- not for himself but for humans.

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Yeah, it does. It does seem to fit far better with Jewish thinking than Hellenic thinking...

Yes, the Pascal sacrificial element certainly seems Jewish. I would even go so far as to say that I personally find it to be a point in favor of a possible historical crucifixion. I think that it smacks of an apologia for an embarrassing execution. Reconceptualizing the event in terms of Pascal-surrogate symbology has a certain amount of satisfying explanatory power to me. It seems more plausible than starting with a traditional Jewish Messiah and then inventing a crucifixion out of whole cloth.

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Sorry to be on the lazy side, but could I have a primary source for the Dionysian resurrection? The article "Dying and Rising Gods" from the Encyclopedia of Religion does not even list him there. I'm curious on where we're extracting this information from.

Don't worry. I'm not going Acharya S. on you.

I'm not going to say he was crucified or had 12 disciples or anything.

From Wikipedia

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In another version of the same story, Dionysus was the son of Zeus and Persephone, the queen of the underworld. A jealous Hera again attempted to kill the child, this time by sending Titans to rip Dionysus to pieces after luring the baby with toys. Zeus drove the Titans away with his thunderbolts, but only after the Titans ate everything but the heart, which was saved, variously, by Athena, Rhea, or Demeter. Zeus used the heart to recreate him in the womb of Semele, hence he was again "the twice-born". Sometimes people said that he gave Semele the heart to eat to impregnate her. The rebirth in both versions of the story is the primary reason he was worshipped in mystery religions, as his death and rebirth were events of mystical reverence. This narrative was apparently used in certain Greek and Roman mystery religions. Variants of it are found in Callimachus and Nonnus, who refer to this Dionysus under the title Zagreus, and also in several fragmentary poems attributed to Orpheus.

Other similarities are that he was the son of a God and a mortal woman and that he changed water into wine (which is the almost literal "miracle" of the grape vine if you think about it). The Didache also refers to the "Holy Vine of David" which was "made known" through Jesus.

Just to be clear. I'm not arguing for a mythical origin for Jesus. I would tend more towards Dionysian and other influences being layered on later rather than sooner.

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I'm really looking for something that would be totally isolated from Christianity and its influence. As I recall, there's an argument for Christian thinking on Hindu religion. Not a very strong argument, but its there nonetheless. Anything in Native American, African, Australian, Polynesian, or Far Eastern religions that might suggest something like this?

Besides Greco-Roman mythology (and Judeo-Christianity, of course) I've really only studied some Indian and Far Eastern mythologies and traditions (Hinduism, Buddhism, Taoism, Jainism). I've never done any but some very casual study of Native American mythologies and almost none of African or Australian.

A lot of the Hindu stuff predates not only Christianity but even Judaism. It's a colossal tradition which almost nobody ever manages to study all of. It includes thousands of stories of almost every description and some of them are bound to sound similar to Jewish or christian stories here and there. It doesn't prove a connection, of course.

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So when will I see you on my forum then? I'd love another classicist.

As sson as I can think of a good topic, I guess. Any ideas?

Chris Weimer · 02-15-2006, 10:03 PM

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Originally Posted by Diogenes the Cynic

But the Nephilim didn't suffer on behalf of human beings. I think the god who suffers or sacrifices to give something to humans is the pertinent precurser. Prometheus suffered because he cared about humans. I also disagree that his suffering wasn't willing. He at least knew that there was a huge RISK of punishment and he took that risk willingly- not for himself but for humans.

According to Enoch, the nephilim were punished also for giving humans their knowledge.

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Yes, the Pascal sacrificial element certainly seems Jewish. I would even go so far as to say that I personally find it to be a point in favor of a possible historical crucifixion. I think that it smacks of an apologia for an embarrassing execution. Reconceptualizing the event in terms of Pascal-surrogate symbology has a certain amount of satisfying explanatory power to me. It seems more plausible than starting with a traditional Jewish Messiah and then inventing a crucifixion out of whole cloth.

I entirely agree. This is why in every one of my positive statements about the historical Jesus, I also make sure to include the cross. If nothing else were known, we would still know the cross. You may not agree with me about going that far, and I'm not trying to say you do, but merely stating my opinion. But I digress...

Regarding Dionysius, I'm going to have to do some research on Callimachus, which the Wikipedia article lists as their primary source (aside from the very late Nonnus).

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Just to be clear. I'm not arguing for a mythical origin for Jesus. I would tend more towards Dionysian and other influences being layered on later rather than sooner.

I agree. Much of the Christ is later fiction. I wasn't suspecting you of that.

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Besides Greco-Roman mythology (and Judeo-Christianity, of course) I've really only studied some Indian and Far Eastern mythologies and traditions (Hinduism, Buddhism, Taoism, Jainism). I've never done any but some very casual study of Native American mythologies and almost none of African or Australian.

I'm going to have to pour over my mythology books now, which might take a while. They're quite large.

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A lot of the Hindu stuff predates not only Christianity but even Judaism. It's a colossal tradition which almost nobody ever manages to study all of. It includes thousands of stories of almost every description and some of them are bound to sound similar to Jewish or christian stories here and there. It doesn't prove a connection, of course.

Very true. Actually, aside, many would argue that the term "Hindu" is actually quite meaningless, that not only the stories but also the beliefs of a scattered people should be not counted as a religion, but as a culture. That is for another time and another forum (perhaps one day I'll get around to that in NAR&P).

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As sson as I can think of a good topic, I guess. Any ideas?

Well, you can always respond to the existing topics... I've been trying to bring up interesting topics...

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