Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Chili · 06-17-2005, 09:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Knife

The Roman Catholic church is the orthodoxy...which began when Peter became pope (so goes the claim). In other words, the Roman Catholic chuirch began with Peter and the "orthodoxy" was formed according to the Roman Catholic church doctrine (so goes the claim).

It is not a matter of becoming pope but in holding the faith that made Peter worthy to be the first pope.

The argument is very simple if you consider that inspiration is the basis for their orthodoxy as opposed to searching through bible passages that are second hand to the reader. In other words, Catholicism holds the truth (they wrote the good book) and protestants fight against it or scramble tru it to find some small portions of truth that they run away with.

This already started when the first disciples of Jesus broke away from him. Boethuis writes about this in his "Consolation of Philosophy" (Pinguin Classic page 36): "Her dress had been torn by the hands of marauders who had each carried off such pieces as he could get." So yes, protestantism is as old as the value of truth.

Just go to John 21 where Peter was naked to wit (and thus without preconceived ideas about religion) wherefore he could catch no fish until Jesus told him to cast his nets on the other side of his mind where truth resides and thus from where inspiration comes.

Orthodoxy (orthodoxeia) signifies right belief or purity of faith ... salvation, it also, with the truths clearly deduced from it, forms the object and content of orthodoxy ...

Californian · 06-18-2005, 10:38 AM

In the first several centuries, there were more varieties of Christianity than we have today. When Constantine was shopping for a state religion, he picked the one with the most organized hierarchy, rituals and dogma. No thought required on the part of the laity. Just obey the bishops, attend the sacramental rituals and believe the dogma.

Chili · 06-18-2005, 10:45 AM

No problem but you must admid that it worked well for him and still today is the best place to be if poor Catholics by definition are good Catholics in the eyes of God. :wave:

hughmcjr · 06-20-2005, 01:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Knife

According to the Roman Catholics they claim that their papal lineage starts with Peter, who of course got his teachings from Jesus. Peter went to Rome and was the first pope.

In addition, they claim (atleast I have heard the claim pronounced by several Roman Catholics I personally know) that what a catholic is taught today is the same thing a Catholic was taught 2000 years ago.

My question is...are there any good books or essays that directly refute these claims?

The belief is based on the bible where Jesus says you are Cephas(Rock)Peter and upon this ROCK I will build my church. Hence Peter then becomes the first pope. Any library will have some books with references to this and stating Jesus founded the Catholic church in 33 AD upon his stating Peter is the ROCK.

DougLDS · 06-20-2005, 03:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hughmcjr

Any library will have some books with references to this and stating Jesus founded the Catholic church in 33 AD upon his stating Peter is the ROCK.

And there will be several books contradicting that position claiming that the "ROCK" is actually Peter's confession of faith and it is THAT confession the Church is built on.

DougLDS · 06-20-2005, 03:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chili

They are older Biff. The Catholic Church was built of the foundation laid by Jesus Christ and the protestant church already walked away from this before that. Go to John 6:66 and read "From this time on, many of his disciples broke away and would not remain in his company any longer."

You must always remember here that if the gates of hell shall not prevail against Her the anti-christ is not far away.

Yeah, and the Eastern Orthodox believe the same thing about their Church.

fta · 06-20-2005, 04:00 AM

Any Protestant will tell you Jesus really meant that "on this rock OF FAITH I will build my church", blah blah blah.

Huon · 06-20-2005, 07:11 AM

Hello Knife !

The dogma of Assumption of Mary was proclaimed on November 1st, 1950 by Pius XII. This is to relativize the antiquity of the Roman catholic faith.

Huon · 06-20-2005, 10:43 AM

In the Constitution Ineffabilis Deus of 8 December, 1854, Pius IX Mastai-Ferretti pronounced and defined that the Blessed Virgin Mary "in the first instance of her conception, by a singular privilege and grace granted by God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Saviour of the human race, was preserved exempt from all stain of original sin."

Another dogma which had to be confirmed... in 1854. "Immaculate Conception", not of Jesus, but of Mary.

Wallener · 06-20-2005, 01:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hughmcjr

... Jesus founded the Catholic church in 33 AD upon his stating Peter is the ROCK.

Even accepting that claim at face value, "Catholic" is not equivalent to "Roman Catholic".

06-20-2005, 07:11 AM	#18
Huon Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Bordeaux France Posts: 2,796	The dogma of Assumption Hello Knife ! The dogma of Assumption of Mary was proclaimed on November 1st, 1950 by Pius XII. This is to relativize the antiquity of the Roman catholic faith.

06-20-2005, 10:43 AM	#19
Huon Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Bordeaux France Posts: 2,796	Immaculate Conception In the Constitution Ineffabilis Deus of 8 December, 1854, Pius IX Mastai-Ferretti pronounced and defined that the Blessed Virgin Mary "in the first instance of her conception, by a singular privilege and grace granted by God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Saviour of the human race, was preserved exempt from all stain of original sin." Another dogma which had to be confirmed... in 1854. "Immaculate Conception", not of Jesus, but of Mary.

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06-18-2005, 10:38 AM	#12
Californian Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 1,923	In the first several centuries, there were more varieties of Christianity than we have today. When Constantine was shopping for a state religion, he picked the one with the most organized hierarchy, rituals and dogma. No thought required on the part of the laity. Just obey the bishops, attend the sacramental rituals and believe the dogma.

06-18-2005, 10:45 AM	#13
Chili Banned Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Alberta Posts: 11,885	No problem but you must admid that it worked well for him and still today is the best place to be if poor Catholics by definition are good Catholics in the eyes of God. :wave:

06-20-2005, 04:00 AM	#17
fta Regular Member Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Oceania Posts: 334	Any Protestant will tell you Jesus really meant that "on this rock OF FAITH I will build my church", blah blah blah.

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