Yahzi

1353: The Shroud's fully documented history began in Western Europe when it was revealed by Geoffrey DeCharney in Lirey, France.

1452: DeCharney's granddaughter sold the cloth to the Duke of Savoy in exchange for two castles. It remained in the Savoy family until 1982 when it was officially willed to the Catholic church although it had custodial care of the Shroud for centuries.

http://www.shroud2000.com/FastFacts.html

You don't need a link, you need a small tab of paper or a sugar cube. One that has been blessed, of course...

Orthodox_Freethinker

In the resurrection, the fleshly body of Christ transformed from one of normal human flesh to that of a life-giving spirit. This is why His tomb was not only empty but He was able to walk through walls.

If the shroud were somehow the forgery of Medieval con-men, what reason would they have in producing a false X-ray image if the X-ray had not even been invented yet? It wouldn't have occurred to a forger to create false impressions of his teeth and finger bones.

"On closer examination, the Whangers have found that there are images of many objects in addition to those of the body, and that these images show evidence of electron coronal discharge radiation. These additional objects include a crucifixion nail, a Roman spear, a sponge on a stick, a crown of thorns, two scourges, a large hammer, a pair of pliers, and two desecrated Jewish phylacteries or prayer boxes. All are consistent with 1st Century objects, with Roman crucifixions of Jews, with Jewish burial practices, and/or with Biblical accounts of the Crucifixion of Jesus.

Several findings of the Whangers show the origin of the Shroud images to be from Israel in the spring of AD 30. Evidence for this includes the images of large numbers of flowers banked around the body. The Whangers have identified 28 species, 20 of which grow in Jerusalem and the other 8 within 12 miles of Jerusalem, with a common blooming time of March and April. The pollens of 25 of these have been independently identified by Dr. Max Frei, a Swiss criminalist and botanist, as being present on the Shroud from sticky tape samples that he took in 1973 and 1978. Visible over each eye are detailed images of two different lepton coins (widows mites) of Pontius Pilate, each dated AD 29. Some statues in the Middle East are based on the Shroud face image, the earliest dated AD 31.

Examination of a three dimensional enhancement of the face reveals the underlying skeletal structures, including the eye sockets, nasal bones, sinuses, and about 20 teeth, showing that the Shroud image is in part an autoradiograph."
http://www.duke.edu/~adw2/shroud/whanger.htm



Peace.

Orthodox_Freethinker

Are we posting in the same thread? The Shroud of Turin is that of a first-century, crucified Palestinian Jewish man. Read the above post and then claim that Jesus did not exist.

Peace.

greyline

Ouch. Presumably you don't mean the coins had "AD 29" stamped on them. :devil3:

Orthodox_Freethinker

I believe this is speaking of some sort of scientific dating method. Either way, this is one of many impression on the shroud that are native only to the area in which Jesus was crucified.

Peace.

Alf

Perhaps they weren't even aware of that? It was most likely just a side effect. They didn't have the techniques avaiilable to see it so they was unaware that it at all existed.

The reason why that shroud was famous was not because of any X ray images but because of the plainly visible markings.

Alf

Wads4

""On closer examination, the Whangers have found that there are images of many objects in addition to those of the body, and that these images show evidence of electron coronal discharge radiation. These additional objects include a crucifixion nail, a Roman spear, a sponge on a stick, a crown of thorns, two scourges, a large hammer, a pair of pliers, and two desecrated Jewish phylacteries or prayer boxes. All are consistent with 1st Century objects, with Roman crucifixions of Jews, with Jewish burial practices, and/or with Biblical accounts of the Crucifixion of Jesus."

This is completely laughable; apart from the BC/AD dating system which as others have pointed out was obviously not in use, Jesus appears to have been buried with everything but the kitchen sink (no mention of this in the Gospels),--including a sponge on a stick, the Roman equivalent of loo-paper.
That therefore proves that he was alive (if he needed loo-paper), and therefore did not die on the cross and therefore was not resurrected.
It is wonderful what blind faith can come up with. I do not know of these Whangers,--would they by any chance have an agenda to prove? What is an electron coronal discharge?--was Jesus emitting cathode rays? If so perhaps they had television in those days.

John A. Broussard

Sorry about that. I didn't realize that you were advancing this piece of cloth--which even the Catholic Church owns but won't declare to be authentic--as evidence of Jesus' existence.

Let's assume for the moment that the shroud actually has retained the image of some dead human being, how is that any more evidence that it pictures Jesus then that famous grilled cheese sandwich represented Mary?

Even the shabbiest of art dealers would demand a decent provenance. Provide it, please. Trace the history of the shroud from 33 CE to the 13th Century.

Thank you.

Sarpedon

That Wanker website was certainly absurd. They "made comparisons between the man on the shroud and images on religious icons?" Do you think that strengthens your argument at all? Au contraire! No portraits of jesus exist. They are all simply the imaginations of artists. If the man in the shroud resembles them, then the shroud is also a product of an artists imagination, doubtless influenced by other paintings he had seen in life.

These things are consistant with jewish burial rites? Another absurdity. Was it customary for jews to lay out corpses with their hands covering their genitals? Have you ever been to a funeral where the corpse's hands were covering his/her genitals? No. Because no culture on earth has ever done that. Its ridiculous.

So, you discard all the obvious elements, that are visible to the naked eye, in favor of the wild statements of Dr Whanger. How did Dr Wanker identify the coins, given such poor resolution of the image? Why would jesus have been buried with the whips that were used to flog him? How do you tell a corpse is a "jewish" male just by looking at it? (especially when the genitals are covered!) Dr Wanker is a doctor of medicine, apparently. Not history, not archaeology, not radiology. That website makes fantastical claims, like statues of Jesus dated 31 BC? What statues, in what museums, dated by whom? The article contains no references. Anyone who has gone to college knows that an article with no references is not to be trusted. And, most importantly, why has the research of the Whangers not been followed up by other, more qualified experts? All this stuff was published in 1984 or thereabouts.

Have you performed my experiment with your own head yet? Or are you afraid of what you may see?

Orthodox_Freethinker

No, no and no. It is much more likely that these things were placed with the dead Christ in order to identify the victim just as the ancient Egyptians were buried with their valuables.

Peace.