maryhelena

The search is for history not Paul's theology or its developments. That is a sideline. Sure 'Paul' existed - I'm not denying that. I'm suggesting that 'Paul' was not the only name he went by...

Steve Weiss

Who existed and who said what according to whom are open questions when it comes to ancient history or even more modern history. Much is conjecture and speculation combined with propaganda, missing documents, forged documents, and myth interspersed with an occasional fact or artifact. One can choose to believe or disbelieve the stories that have survived to reach us, but as to whether they are the truth is difficult if not impossible to determine. Claims for the existence of miracles, on the other hand, can be rejected out of hand as propaganda and deceit foisted upon a gullible and less than scientific-minded public. Applying this standard to foreign cultures seems simple enough to believers, but they are loathe to do so when it comes to their own preferred beliefs.

Doug Shaver

OK. It might not be so improbable that he never said, "We've got these books named such-and-such written by so-and-so." What I find not the least bit credible is that he would have been ignorant of their contents or, never minding whether he would have identified his source, he wouldn't say a word about anything that was in them.

He certainly did not know Paul personally, but he had to have heard something about him.

I have no basis for even speculating on how familiar Acts' author might have been with Paul's writings. In any case, though, considering the way he portrays Paul in Acts, I wouldn't be at all surprised if he wanted to pretend the writings didn't exist, on the supposition that he knew something about what was in them.

Doug Shaver

Whatever makes that seem, in your mind, to be my position, it's nothing I wrote.

Doug Shaver

From observations of human nature.

stephan huller

But you can't understand historical movements without come to terms with the ideas that inspired them. That's what has to happen when studying the French Revolution or the Election of 2010. Why should we put 'theology to the side' when trying to understand the Christian movement of 1st century CE? That's absurd. Almost the only way Judaism reveals itself to us through the ages is groups of theological interpretation.

What are you doing again?

maryhelena

Some people believe that Paul's theology involved a spiritual Jesus figure that was later reified. Other people believe that Paul's theology is about a resurrection of a crucified flesh and blood man. How understanding, if such understanding is at all possible, of Paul's state of mind, is going to further a historical research into pre and early christian origins beats me. Come now - looking for history within theology is nonsensical :huh:

Sure, lots of interpretation of OT sources was going on - as they say, one can play any old tune at that game. What's needed is to get the relevant history on the table - and then perhaps one might be able to grasp what it was within that history that set 'Paul' off on his theological/spiritual trips....

stephan huller

But sometimes it's necessary. It's done every day in the study of Judaism and Samaritanism through the ages. Why should Christianity be any different?

If it was a perfect world everyone ends up marrying a cheerleader. But the world is imperfect. We end up dealing with what's left and which might be less desirable. But sometimes less desirable is still necessary. Ask a guy in lock up for twenty years.

And what are the alternatives? Letting people with endless imagination determine the shape of 'the Christian myth'? Is that really preferable? Why is your made up world any better than a shadow theological world from the first century?

show_no_mercy

Of course, history creates theology (just look at the history of I&J) so it doesn't seem like looking for history in theology is such a nonsensical idea.

There were definite historical/sociological precursors that led to creating a fictionalized/theological version of the history of Israel and Judah. I'm sure the same can be done with Christianity.

stephan huller

Yes but she is arguing that it is impossible to trace history through ideas. I am saying its not what you want. But when it is all that is left out there, you have to do what you have to do.