proudfootz

I'm inclined to think possibly that I misread the post and that the 'scripture of Paul' was meant to be taken as 'the scripture that inspired Paul'...

Sadly, I never found out exactly what bit of the OT scripture was supposed to have inspired both Plato in the 4th century BC and Paul in the 1st (or 2nd) century AD to come up with the same phraseology...

But it would appear Plato was among the first christians - he got his ideas from literature apparently.

proudfootz

It's a magic incantation - like 'hocus pocus' or 'abra cadabra' or 'talitha cum'.

aa5874

Of course you are arguing with me right now.

Of course it matters whether the Pauline writings were early or late. What are you talking about??

Please, if all Scholars admitted that Acts of the Apostles and all the Pauline letters were composed in the 2nd century or later and AFTER the Jesus story was composed then the HJ argument will vanish from the face of earth like the Flat earth "theory".

If you were in agreement with me about the Late Pauline writings you would have said so long ago.

My actual goal is to eradicate the Chinese Whispers that the Pauline writings were early.

It is my intention to Expose that all claims that the Pauline writings are early have NO support whatsoever in the very NT Canon.

It is time to stop the "Flat Earth theories" [theories without evidence] of the Pauline letters.

No writer in the Canon can account for any Pauline letters--Nobody.

tanya

I share your enthusiasm for this notion, but, I would ask whether Alexander, taught by Aristotle, may have been responsible for challenging the Jewish sanction against eating pork, and their fascination with circumcision, based then, not on the writings of Plato, but rather on those of his mentor, the famous scientist.
It means, sotto voce is not about to acknowledge the influence of Zoroastrianism on both Judaism and Christianity.

:thumbs:

Thanks Shesh, two good posts. Always a pleasure to read.
The DSS Deuteronomy shows YHWH.
It is not an "English custom" to write 'The LORD'. The word "lord", replacing YHWH, is found also in French, and German, coming from Latin, in turn from Kurios in Greek, and in the Masoretic text as adonai.

All of these, including the false claim that Jews believed in ancient times, that they ought not pronounce YHWH, date post Alexander, who was the first "messiah", after David, and all of these languages reflect the political power of the Roman Empire, a military machine which murdered heretics on the spot, for failing to support the divinity of Jesus. Obviously if a Jew is confronted with the need to shave his beard, cut his hair, go to church on Sunday, eat pork, and acknowledge publicly the divinity of Jesus, son of YHWH, else die, the choice is not going to be too difficult. A few martyrs, and the rest would follow along. Who is left to rewrite the ancient Hebrew manuscripts, still in our possession today? A tiny handful of scholars would have survived the onslaught. What are they going to do, when told that their families die, before their eyes, tortured and raped, unless the scholar agrees to certain changes in the text? Is it really so difficult to grasp: change YHWH to adonai, or die. Tell folks in the temple to stop saying YHWH, and say "adonai" instead, else, we will lock the doors, and set fire to the whole congregation, thereby sending them to Hell, where they belong.....And, if you want to keep your son, then, you must give me your beautiful thirteen year old daughter, .....

Messiah = anointed, with the implication of soter, saviour; equivalent in Greek to christou, hence, the confusion today, and in the time of Maimonides, regarding the overlap in terminology between anointment and saviour riding on the great white horse, leading the army to overthrow the colonial masters.

kurios = lord, not specifically religious, but, in context of christianity, used as synonym for Jesus.

Clivedurdle

On Aristotle, I wonder if we need to comment on the huge differences in Greek and Jewish thinking.

Archimedes had cracked calculus - Archimedes Palimpsest. The size of the world had been measured correctly. The art was superb. A couple of hundred years later we do have the antikythera mechanism.

Greece had a fledgling democracy, the basic concept was priesthood of all believers, compared with most people around who had priests.

Greece was basically modern compared with Judaism.

When cultures meet, the more powerful one is often the winner.

sotto voce

Terrific.

.... probably got from pre-monarchy Israel.

proudfootz

For the purposes of this thread it doesn't matter if Paul is dated 1st, 2nd, or 3rd century AD. It doesn't matter if one guy wrote them, or a committee.

The best explanation for the presence of Platonism in the content of the texts stems from the fact that Plato had been around for several hundred years already, and as an influential force in Greek literature influenced the authors of the 'epistles'.

I'm only talking about Paul on this thread as an example of hellenistic influence on an author now taken to be 'christian'.

sotto voce

One may dream that one can find a trace of Plato in Paul. One can even, as a demagogue, harangue and hector people into saying that there is Plato in Paul. But everyone will know that there is no Plato in Paul.

If there was Plato in Paul, nobody would object to him.

:lol:

proudfootz

Apparently people who actually study the issue disagree with your assessment. I've already linked to places where this is discussed and the evidence is presented.

Given that you've been unable to supply any evidence for your notion that Plato came up with the same 'christian' ideas as Paul by reading some unknown verses in the Hebrew bible, it would appear that you're only attempting to play the demagogue haranguing and hectoring people to accept your claims on faith alone.

There's plenty of people who object to Plato.

Horatio Parker

More likely that both sources had an older external influence: Egypt.