Naruto

So optimistic...humans have come a long way from where they once were. There is a long way to go, but that does not mean we can't do it.

Pensee

I'll admit that I haven't read all the posts, but I have skimmed them all. Forgive me if I re-make a point.

(I'm glad you asked this, because I need to remember these things in case it comes up in conversation with my mother. )

Here are my thoughts on hell. The concept of hell was one of my biggest deconversion tools.

According to the Bible, why is there a hell? Because there's sin. Why is there sin? Thanks to Adam and Eve.

The story of the Fall of Man just doesn't make much sense. For one thing, in the very beginning, Adam and Eve had NO knowledge of good and evil. They did not obtain that knowledge until Eve ate the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. There was no way she could possibly understand that she was doing "evil" or committing a "sin" by disobeying God when eating the fruit. She didn't know eating the fruit was wrong even if God commanded them not to. She had zero concept of good/bad, wrong/right, etc. So why were they punished so harshly?

Even if Adam & Eve sinned, what does that have to do with you and me and everybody else in the world? He's God. He *choose* to punish the rest of mankind. We're playing by his rules. No matter what Adam and Eve did, God choose to create every person thereafter with a sinful nature. HE PUT IT IN OUR NATURE TO SIN! Then, if we do sin, since it's in our God-given nature, we get eternal torture. Isn't that tipping the scales in favor of us going to hell?

According to the Bible and all the Bible-believing Christians, God loves us more than anyone could ever possibly love us. They love us even more than our parents could fathom. No matter what I did, my mom and/or dad could NEVER hold my hand to flame for a second. Never. But it's not just for a second. God is allowing our bodies to be literally consumed with fire for all eternity. Pure torture. How loving is that?

But!!!! Interject the Christians!!! God punishes those he loves just like any good parent would punish his/her child when the child does wrong. It is true that good parents punish their children when they misbehave. But what is the purpose of punishment? Correction. Parents punish their kids in order that they may learn from their mistakes and do better next time. They don't punish just for the sake or enjoyment of punishing. What's the purpose of God's punishment? You got me! He never gives us another chance. He not only punishes, but tortures--consumes our bodies with fire forever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever etc. with no end in sight! He'll never give anyone a "second" chance. It's too late. He'll never give anyone a chance to prove that they learned their lesson. He'll never give anyone a chance to do better. Yet the torture continues...


(but he's a loving god of course! :banghead: )

Black Leaf

I think you are wrong. All those problems that you mentioned exist, but they have been much worse in the past. Think of the black death. When was the last time we had something happen on that scale? Think about all the many, many advancements of the last 100 years. Some would argue we have learned more in the last 100 years then we knew in all of human history before that.

Science will beat cancer just like it did with polio. Aids will be a thing of the past too. World security is far better a picture then 200 years ago, and the amount of people dying has dropped. Right now, we have amazing scientific advances going on every day.

I remain optomistic that we are on the verge of solving most of the world's major problems. Humanity does keep screwing up, but the march of progress has always been forward.

Black Leaf

Very inspiring words. What is the purpose of the tortorous hell as described in the bible?

I feel better having raised this issue. Somehow, the mental ability to conclude "Hell does not exist" is a difficult mountain to climb. It doesn't take a child psycologist to tell you that teaching a kid something at an early age and repeating that message over and over and over is an excellent way to get him to believe it. That is a lot of mental barriers to climb over

Rifleman

The idea of hell was the main thing that led to my becoming a skeptic as well. I haven't ruled out the existence of some God, but I no longer believe in hell. Can I rule it out? No. I can't even rule out the possibility that every single person who ever lived ends up in hell after death. But there's certainly no evidence for it, and thus I no longer let the fear of damnation preclude me from using my brain.

As someone already mentioned, if hell exists, then you'd think God would've been courteous enough to mention it to the ancient Israelites when they received the Mosaic Law. But as it turns out, the God of the Old Testament had a different way of threatening punishment beyond death for those who died unrepentant: the infliction of punishment on the sinner's children. I guess the reasoning there is that even if a sinner doesn't fear death, he or she will still have enough concern for his offspring that he'll obey the religious leaders' commands.

Queen of Swords

Originally posted by Magus55
Hell is locked from the inside.

Do you have a bible verse to back this up? Or was it a direct inspiration from the Holy Spirit?

The true Pain of Hell comes from rejecting God.

In other words, I've suffered the true Pain of Hell already. And yet I continue to live. Judging from what you said, hell doesn't sound too bad.

Spending eternity without His favor

What is his favor, anyway? Does his favor enable people to breathe, or to digest food, or to dispose of the results thereof?

knowing you could have been saved but you gave it up.

Frankly, I'd rather relinquish your religion than my self-respect.

No, He cried out to God for abandoning Him and breaking their bond.

Since I don't have this kind of bondage, I don't suppose I'll be suffering. I think fundamentalists might, though, especially from the disillusion of realizing that they weren't the chosen people after all.

Ebonmuse

No, it is not good. Says something about the morality of the being that created it (if there is such a being, of course), doesn't it?

I think your despair is a self-fulfilling prophecy - when your religion teaches you that you're a depraved wretch who's incapable of solving your own problems, it's no surprise that that's just how you'll behave. However, you are correct that this world is a place of terrible, pointless suffering for so many people. That doesn't mean it will always be so, nor that it's not getting any better. And it certainly doesn't mean that there's no possibility for happiness or hope whatsoever. Just think how far we've come in the last few hundred years, how many diseases we've cured, how many prejudices we've shed. As numerous as our faults are right now, I think humanity has the potential to accomplish some truly amazing things, and I for one intend to do my best to bring that bright future about, even if it's only in a very small way, even if I can only help a few people. You, on the other hand, may be content to sit on the sidelines and moan about how hopeless and terrible it all is, but I am a humanist. I believe we are capable of doing good.

Calzaer

QoS:
I'll give you three guesses. I'm adding this one to the .txt file of "Unbiblical things Magus believes".

mjbeam

Then how is god going to get the door open to shove me in?


-Mike

Queen of Swords

And what's the point of locking the place from the inside? Is it to protect Satan?