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Old 08-06-2012, 07:19 PM   #21
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Default The end of the Therapeutae

continued ...
40 V. I wish also to speak of their common assemblies, and their very cheerful meetings at convivial parties, ...

65 In the first place, these men assemble at the end of seven weeks, venerating not only the simple week of seven days, but also its multiplied power, ...

66 Therefore when they come together clothed in white garments, and joyful with the most exceeding gravity, when some one of the ephemereutae (for that is the appellation which they are accustomed to give to those who are employed in such ministrations), before they sit down to meat standing in order in a row, and raising their eyes and their hands to heaven, ... they pray to God that the entertainment may be acceptable, and welcome, and pleasing;

67 and after having offered up these prayers the elders sit down to meat, still observing the order in which they were previously arranged, for they do not look on those as elders who are advanced in years and very ancient, but in some cases they esteem those as very young men, if they have attached themselves to this sect only lately, but those whom they call elders are those who from their earliest infancy have grown up and arrived at maturity in the speculative portion of philosophy, which is the most beautiful and most divine part of it.

68 And the women also share in this feast, the greater part of whom, though old, are virgins in respect of their purity (not indeed through necessity, as some of the priestesses among the Greeks are, who have been compelled to preserve their chastity more than they would have done of their own accord), but out of an admiration for and love of wisdom, with which they are desirous to pass their lives, on account of which they are indifferent to the pleasures of the body, desiring not a mortal but an immortal offspring, which the soul that is attached to God is alone able to produce by itself and from itself, the Father having sown in it rays of light appreciable only by the intellect, by means of which it will be able to perceive the doctrines of wisdom.

69 IX. And the order in which they sit down to meat is a divided one, the men sitting on the right hand and the women apart from them on the left; and in case any one by chance suspects that cushions, if not very costly ones, still at all events of a tolerably soft substance, are prepared for men who are well born and well bred, and contemplators of philosophy, he must know that they have nothing but rugs of the coarsest materials, cheap mats of the most ordinary kind of the papyrus of the land, piled up on the ground and projecting a little near the elbow, so that the feasters may lean upon them, for they relax in a slight degree the Lacedaemonian rigor of life, and at all times and in all places they practice a liberal, gentlemanlike kind of frugality, hating the allurements of pleasure with all their might.

70 And they do not use the ministrations of slaves, looking upon the possession of servants or slaves to be a thing absolutely and wholly contrary to nature, for nature has created all men free, but the injustice and covetousness of some men who prefer inequality, that cause of all evil, having subdued some, has given to the more powerful authority over those who are weaker.

71 Accordingly in this sacred entertainment there is, as I have said, no slave, but free men minister to the guests, performing the offices of servants, not under compulsion, nor in obedience to any imperious commands, but of their own voluntary free will, with all eagerness and promptitude anticipating all orders,

72 for they are not any chance free men who are appointed to perform these duties, but young men who are selected from their order with all possible care on account of their excellence, acting as virtuous and well-born youths ought to act who are eager to attain to the perfection of virtue, and who, like legitimate sons, with affectionate rivalry minister to their fathers and mothers, thinking their common parents more closely connected with them than those who are related by blood, since in truth to men of right principles there is nothing more nearly akin than virtue; and they come in to perform their service ungirdled, and with their tunics let down, in order that nothing which bears any resemblance to a slavish appearance may be introduced into this festival.

73 I know well that some persons will laugh when they hear this, but they who laugh will be those who do things worthy of weeping and lamentation. And in those days wine is not introduced, but only the clearest water; cold water for the generality, and hot water for those old men who are accustomed to a luxurious life. And the table, too, bears nothing which has blood, but there is placed upon it bread for food and salt for seasoning, to which also hyssop is sometimes added as an extra sauce for the sake of those who are delicate in their eating, for just as right reason commands the priest to offer up sober sacrifices, ...

67 and after having offered up these prayers the elders sit down to meat, still observing the order in which they were previously arranged, for they do not look on those as elders who are advanced in years and very ancient, but in some cases they esteem those as very young men, if they have attached themselves to this sect only lately, but those whom they call elders are those who from their earliest infancy have grown up and arrived at maturity in the speculative portion of philosophy, which is the most beautiful and most divine part of it.

68 And the women also share in this feast, the greater part of whom, though old, are virgins in respect of their purity (not indeed through necessity, as some of the priestesses among the Greeks are, who have been compelled to preserve their chastity more than they would have done of their own accord), but out of an admiration for and love of wisdom, with which they are desirous to pass their lives, on account of which they are indifferent to the pleasures of the body, desiring not a mortal but an immortal offspring, which the soul that is attached to God is alone able to produce by itself and from itself, the Father having sown in it rays of light appreciable only by the intellect, by means of which it will be able to perceive the doctrines of wisdom.

69 IX. And the order in which they sit down to meat is a divided one, the men sitting on the right hand and the women apart from them on the left; and in case any one by chance suspects that cushions, if not very costly ones, still at all events of a tolerably soft substance, are prepared for men who are well born and well bred, and contemplators of philosophy, he must know that they have nothing but rugs of the coarsest materials, cheap mats of the most ordinary kind of the papyrus of the land, piled up on the ground and projecting a little near the elbow, so that the feasters may lean upon them, for they relax in a slight degree the Lacedaemonian rigor of life, and at all times and in all places they practice a liberal, gentlemanlike kind of frugality, hating the allurements of pleasure with all their might.

70 And they do not use the ministrations of slaves, looking upon the possession of servants or slaves to be a thing absolutely and wholly contrary to nature, for nature has created all men free, but the injustice and covetousness of some men who prefer inequality, that cause of all evil, having subdued some, has given to the more powerful authority over those who are weaker.

71 Accordingly in this sacred entertainment there is, as I have said, no slave, but free men minister to the guests, performing the offices of servants, not under compulsion, nor in obedience to any imperious commands, but of their own voluntary free will, with all eagerness and promptitude anticipating all orders,

72 for they are not any chance free men who are appointed to perform these duties, but young men who are selected from their order with all possible care on account of their excellence, acting as virtuous and well-born youths ought to act who are eager to attain to the perfection of virtue, and who, like legitimate sons, with affectionate rivalry minister to their fathers and mothers, thinking their common parents more closely connected with them than those who are related by blood, since in truth to men of right principles there is nothing more nearly akin than virtue; and they come in to perform their service ungirdled, and with their tunics let down, in order that nothing which bears any resemblance to a slavish appearance may be introduced into this festival.

73 I know well that some persons will laugh when they hear this, but they who laugh will be those who do things worthy of weeping and lamentation. And in those days wine is not introduced, but only the clearest water; cold water for the generality, and hot water for those old men who are accustomed to a luxurious life. And the table, too, bears nothing which has blood, but there is placed upon it bread for food and salt for seasoning, to which also hyssop is sometimes added as an extra sauce for the sake of those who are delicate in their eating, for just as right reason commands the priest to offer up sober sacrifices,

74 so also these men are commanded to live sober lives ...

75 X. These, then, are the first circumstances of the feast; but after the guests have sat down to the table in the order which I have been describing, and when those who minister to them are all standing around in order, ready to wait upon them, and when there is nothing to drink, some one will say [...] but even more so than before, so that no one ventures to mutter, or even to breathe at all hard, and then some one looks out some passage in the sacred scriptures, or explains some difficulty which is proposed by some one else, without any thoughts of display on his own part, for he is not aiming at reputation for cleverness and eloquence, but is only desirous to see some points more accurately, and is content when he has thus seen them himself not to bear ill will to others, who, even if they did not perceive the truth with equal acuteness, have at all events an equal desire of learning.

76 And he, indeed, follows a slower method of instruction, dwelling on and lingering over his explanations with repetitions, in order to imprint his conceptions deep in the minds of his hearers, for as the understanding of his hearers is not able to keep up with the interpretation of one who goes on fluently, without stopping to take breath, it gets behind-hand, and fails to comprehend what is said;

77 but the hearers, fixing their eyes and attention upon the speaker, remain in one and the same position listening attentively, indicating their attention and comprehension by their nods and looks, and the praise which they are inclined to bestow on the speaker by the cheerfulness and gentle manner in which they follow him with their eyes and with the fore-finger of the right hand. And the young men who are standing around attend to this explanation no less than the guests themselves who are sitting at meat.

78 And these explanations of the sacred scriptures are delivered by mystic expressions in allegories, for the whole of the law appears to these men to resemble a living animal, and its express commandments seem to be the body, and the invisible meaning concealed under and lying beneath the plain words resembles the soul, in which the rational soul begins most excellently to contemplate what belongs to itself, as in a mirror, beholding in these very words the exceeding beauty of the sentiments, and unfolding and explaining the symbols, and bringing the secret meaning naked to the light to all who are able by the light of a slight intimation to perceive what is unseen by what is visible.

79 When, therefore, the president appears to have spoken at sufficient length, and to have carried out his intentions adequately, so that his explanation has gone on felicitously and fluently through his own acuteness, and the hearing of the others has been profitable, applause arises from them all as of men rejoicing together at what they have seen and heard;

80 and then some one rising up sings a hymn which has been made in honor of God, either such as he has composed himself, or some ancient one of some old poet, for they have left behind them many poems and songs in trimetre iambics, and in psalms of thanksgiving and in hymns, and songs at the time of libation, and at the altar, and in regular order, and in choruses, admirably measured out in various and well diversified strophes. And after him then others also arise in their ranks, in becoming order, while every one else listens in decent silence, except when it is proper for them to take up the burden of the song, and to join in at the end; for then they all, both men and women, join in the hymn.

81 And when each individual has finished his psalm, then the young men bring in the table which was mentioned a little while ago, on which was placed that most holy food, the leavened bread, with a seasoning of salt, with which hyssop is mingled, out of reverence for the sacred table, which lies thus in the holy outer temple; for on this table are placed loaves and salt without seasoning, and the bread is unleavened, and the salt unmixed with anything else,

82 for it was becoming that the simplest and purest things should be allotted to the most excellent portion of the priests, as a reward for their ministrations, and that the others should admire similar things, but should abstain from the loaves, in order that those who are the more excellent person may have the precedence.

83 XI. And after the feast they celebrate the sacred festival during the whole night; and this nocturnal festival is celebrated in the following manner: they all stand up together, and in the middle of the entertainment two choruses are formed at first, the one of men and the other of women, and for each chorus there is a leader and chief selected, who is the most honorable and most excellent of the band.

84 Then they sing hymns which have been composed in honor of God in many metres and tunes, at one time all singing together, and at another moving their hands and dancing in corresponding harmony, and uttering in an inspired manner songs of thanksgiving, and at another time regular odes, and performing all necessary strophes and antistrophes.

85 Then, when each chorus of the men and each chorus of the women has feasted separately by itself, like persons in the bacchanalian revels, drinking the pure wine of the love of God, they join together; and the two become one chorus, an imitation of that one which, in old time, was established by the Red Sea, on account of the wondrous works which were displayed there;

...

88 Now the chorus of male and female worshippers being formed, as far as possible on this model, makes a most humorous concert, and a truly musical symphony, the shrill voices of the women mingling with the deep-toned voices of the men. The ideas were beautiful, the expressions beautiful, and the chorus-singers were beautiful; and the end of ideas, and expressions, and chorus-singers, was piety;

89 therefore, being intoxicated all night till the morning with this beautiful intoxication, without feeling their heads heavy or closing their eyes for sleep, but being even more awake than when they came to the feast, as to their eyes and their whole bodies, and standing there till morning, when they saw the sun rising they raised their hands to heaven, imploring tranquility and truth, and acuteness of understanding. And after their prayers they each retired to their own separate abodes, with the intention of again practicing the usual philosophy to which they had been wont to devote themselves.

90 This then is what I have to say of those who are called therapeutae, who have devoted themselves to the contemplation of nature, and who have lived in it and in the soul alone, being citizens of heaven and of the world, and very acceptable to the Father and Creator of the universe because of their virtue, which has procured them his love as their most appropriate reward, which far surpasses all the gifts of fortune, and conducts them to the very summit and perfection of happiness.
Who knew? :huh:

DCH
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Old 08-06-2012, 07:31 PM   #22
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"Now this class of persons may be met with in many places, for it was fitting that both Greece and the country of the barbarians should partake of whatever is perfectly good;... Philo, Ascetics III
What does "Now this class of persons may be met with in many places, mean?
Pink,

At least I am not the only one to note this particular phrase in The Contemplative Life:
1.21a Now this class of persons may be met with in many places, for it was fitting that both Greece and the country of the barbarians should partake of whatever is perfectly good;

πολλαχοῦ (from many places) μὲν (on one hand) οὖν (then) τῆς (in the) οἰκουμένης (inhabited earth) ἐστὶ (it is) τὸ (the) γένος (race) ἔδει (should be) γὰρ (for) ἀγαθοῦ (good) τελείου (complete) μετασχεῖν (to share in) καὶ (and) τὴν (the) Ἑλλάδα (Greeks) καὶ (and) τὴν (the) βάρβαρον (barbarians),

1:21b and there is the greatest number of such men in Egypt, in every one of the districts, or nomi as they are called, and especially around Alexandria;

πλεονάζει (it superabounds) δὲ (on the other hand) ἐν (in) Αἰγύπτῳ (Egypt) καθ᾽ (according to) ἕκαστον (every single) τῶν (of the) ἐπικαλουμένων (being said) νόμων (nomes) καὶ (and) μάλιστα (especially) περὶ (around) τὴν (the) Ἀλεξάνδρειαν (Alexandria).

1:22a and from all quarters those who are the best of these therapeutae proceed on their pilgrimage to some most suitable place as if it were their country,

1:22a οἱ (the) δὲ (but) πανταχόθεν (from every direction) ἄριστοι (best) καθάπερ (just as) εἰς (into) πατρίδα (fatherland/hometown) θεραπευτῶν (Therapeutae) ἀποικίαν (colony)

1:22b which is beyond the Mareotic lake, lying in a somewhat level plain a little raised above the rest,

1:22b στέλλονται (keeping away) πρός (towards/with) τι (certain) χωρίον (plain) ἐπιτηδειότατον (suitable) ὅπερ (which) ἐστὶν (is) ὑπὲρ (above) λίμνης (lake) Μαρείας (Mariotes) κείμενον (recline) ἐπὶ (upon) γεωλόφου (a hill) χθαμαλωτέρου, (flat)

1:22c being suitable for their purpose by reason of its safety and also of the fine temperature of the air.

1:22c σφόδρα (exceedingly) εὐκαίρως (convenient), ἀσφαλείας (from security) τε (and) ἕνεκα (on account of) καὶ (also) ἀέρος (air) εὐκρασίας (of mild temperature).
I spent several hours over the weekend pondering exactly what Philo was saying here. I think it is this:

Vss 21 and 22 are in the middle if a discussion about the best way one might retire to a life of solitude, that goes from vss 13 to 23. In it, he notes that Therapeutae give away their excess wealth to family & friends (13), contrasted to the Greeks Anaxagoras and Democritus (14 & 18), who devoted themselves to philosophy to the point where they neglected their property, so that:
18 When, therefore, [such] men [i.e., Anaxagoras and Democritus] abandon their property without being influenced by any predominant attraction, they flee without even turning their heads back again, deserting their brethren, their children, their wives, their parents, their numerous families, their affectionate bands of companions, their native lands in which they have been born and brought up, though long familiarity is a most attractive bond, and one very well able to allure any one.

19 And they depart, not to another city as those do who entreat to be purchased from those who at present possess them, being either unfortunate or else worthless servants, and as such seeking a change of masters rather than endeavoring to procure freedom

(for every city, even that which is under the happiest laws, is full of indescribable tumults, and disorders, and calamities, which no one would submit to who had been even for a moment under the influence of wisdom),

20 but they take up their abode outside of walls, or gardens, or solitary lands, seeking for a desert place, not because of any ill-natured misanthropy to which they have learnt to devote themselves,

but because of the associations with people of wholly dissimilar dispositions to which they would otherwise be compelled, and which they know to be unprofitable and mischievous.

21 III. Now this class of persons [those who drop out of society to pursue philosophy] may be met with in many places, for it was fitting that both Greece and the country of the barbarians [i.e., Egypt] should partake of whatever is perfectly good; and there is the greatest number of such men in Egypt, in every one of the districts, or nomi as they are called, and especially around Alexandria;
...

40 V. ... [The Therapeutae's] common assemblies, and their very cheerful meetings at convivial parties, [sets] them in opposition and contrast to the banquets of others, for others, when they drink strong wine [instead of plain water], as if they had been drinking not wine but some agitating and maddening kind of liquor; or even the most formidable thing which can be imagined for driving a man out of his natural reason, rage about and tear things to pieces like so many ferocious dogs, and rise up and attack one another, biting and gnawing each other's noses, and ears, and fingers, and other parts of their body, so as to give an accurate representation of the story related about the Cyclops and the companions of Ulysses, who ate, as the poet says, fragments of human flesh [Odyssey ix. 355], and that more savagely than even he himself;

41 for he was only avenging himself on those whom he conceived to be his enemies, but they were ill-treating their companions and friends, and sometimes even their actual relations, while having the salt and dinner-table before them, at a time of peace perpetrating actions inconsistent with peace, like those which are done by men in gymnastic contests, debasing the proper exercises of the body as coiners debase good money, and instead of athletes (athletai) becoming miserable men (athlioi), for that is the name which properly belongs to them.

...

47 and in this manner they [the neglectful and the profligate] exist to the very end of their lives, without a house and without a home, the enemies of their parents, and of their wives, and of their children, and the enemies of their country, and the worst enemies of all to themselves. For a debauched and profligate life is apt to lay snares for every one.
Amen :innocent2:

DCH
you spent several hours over the weekend just on this? was it b/c of me? :constern01:

You speak Greek? also, what are your thoughts to date?
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Old 08-06-2012, 07:35 PM   #23
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"Now this class of persons may be met with in many places,

Galilee is a place. He doesn't explicitly exclude Galilee.
Again , in the Bible that you believe is History there was some other person carrying out miracles in the name of Christ in Capernaum of GALILEE..

This is EXTREMELY important.

Please, understand that there were more than one person called Jesus in Josephus and another person under the name of CHRIST in gMark and gLuke.

Your claim that Philo spoke of Jesus Christ cannot be argued at this time.

Your VERY BIBLE OPENS up a "Can of Ducks".

See Mark 9 and 13.

Mark 9
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38And John answered him, saying , Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us.39 But Jesus said , Forbid him not...
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Old 08-06-2012, 07:39 PM   #24
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This is Philo's description of the Therapeutae, without the moral platitudes and the counter-examples of neglectful and profligate men:

PS: Is it just me or do these folks seem a bit "new agey"? Dream channeling (Edgar Cayce), singing of responsive hymns while segregated by sex (Shakers), community (Masons - anyone who has ate at a cafeteria run by a local Masonic hall knows what I mean). But then there is a bit of "beat-nikiness" about them (living in shacks at the lakeshore, drinking only spring water and eating plain bread, reading poetry and thoughtfully discussing deep philosophical matters).
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Old 08-06-2012, 07:41 PM   #25
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This is Philo's description of the Therapeutae, without the moral platitudes and the counter-examples of neglectful and profligate men:
11 But the therapeutic sect [γένος, race] of mankind, being continually taught to see without interruption, may well aim at obtaining a sight of the living God, and may pass by the sun, which is visible to the outward sense, and never leave this order which conducts to perfect happiness.

12 But they who apply themselves to this kind of worship, not because they are influenced to do so by custom, nor by the advice or recommendation of any particular persons, but because they are carried away by a certain heavenly love, give way to enthusiasm, behaving like so many revellers in bacchanalian or corybantian mysteries, until they see the object which they have been earnestly desiring.

13 Then, because of their anxious desire for an immortal and blessed existence, thinking that their mortal life has already come to an end, they leave their possessions to their sons or daughters, or perhaps to other relations, giving them up their inheritance with willing cheerfulness; and those who know no relations give their property to their companions or friends, for it followed of necessity that those who have acquired the wealth which sees, as if ready prepared for them, should be willing to surrender that wealth which is blind to those who themselves also are still blind in their minds.

14 ... but how much better were those who have not permitted cattle to devour their possessions, but have supplied the necessities of mankind, of their own relations and friends, and have made them rich though they were poor before? ... but this is the act of sober men, and one which has been carefully elaborated by exceeding prudence.

...

16 How much better and more admirable are they who, without having any inferior eagerness for the attainment of philosophy, have nevertheless preferred magnanimity to carelessness, and, giving presents from their possessions instead of destroying them, so as to be able to benefit others and themselves also, have made others happy by imparting to them of the abundance of their wealth, and themselves by the study of philosophy?

...

22 and [sic, but] from all quarters those who are the best of these therapeutae proceed on their pilgrimage to some most suitable place as if it were their country, which is beyond the Mareotic lake, lying in a somewhat level plain a little raised above the rest, being suitable for their purpose by reason of its safety and also of the fine temperature of the air.

23 For the houses built in the fields and the villages which surround it on all sides give it safety; and the admirable temperature of the air proceeds from the continual breezes which come from the lake which falls into the sea, and also from the sea itself in the neighborhood, the breezes from the sea being light, and those which proceed from the lake which falls into the sea being heavy, the mixture of which produces a most healthy atmosphere.

24 But the houses of these men thus congregated together are very plain, just giving shelter in respect of the two things most important to be provided against, the heat of the sun, and the cold from the open air; and they did not live near to one another as men do in cities, for immediate neighborhood to others would be a troublesome and unpleasant thing to men who have conceived an admiration for, and have determined to devote themselves to, solitude; and, on the other hand, they did not live very far from one another on account of the fellowship which they desire to cultivate, and because of the desirableness of being able to assist one another if they should be attacked by robbers.

25 And in every house there is a sacred shrine which is called the holy place, and the monastery [μοναστήριον, hermit's cell] in which they retire by themselves and perform all the mysteries of a holy life, bringing in nothing, neither meat, nor drink, nor anything else which is indispensable towards supplying the necessities of the body, but studying in that place the laws and the sacred oracles of God enunciated by the holy prophets, and hymns, and psalms, and all kinds of other things by reason of which knowledge and piety are increased and brought to perfection.

26 Therefore they always retain an imperishable recollection of God, so that not even in their dreams is any other object ever presented to their eyes except the beauty of the divine virtues and of the divine powers. Therefore many persons speak in their sleep, divulging and publishing the celebrated doctrines of the sacred philosophy.

27 And they are accustomed to pray twice every day, at morning and at evening; when the sun is rising entreating God that the happiness of the coming day may be real happiness, so that their minds may be filled with heavenly light, and when the sun is setting they pray that their soul, being entirely lightened and relieved of the burden of the outward senses, and of the appropriate object of these outward senses, may be able to trace out truth existing in its own consistory and council chamber.

28 And the interval between morning and evening is by them devoted wholly to meditation on and to practice of virtue, for they take up the sacred scriptures and philosophise concerning them, investigating the allegories of their national philosophy, since they look upon their literal expressions as symbols of some secret meaning of nature, intended to be conveyed in those figurative expressions.

29 They have also writings of ancient men, who having been the founders of one sect or another have left behind them many memorials of the allegorical system of writing and explanation, whom they take as a kind of model, and imitate the general fashion of their sect; so that they do not occupy themselves solely in contemplation, but they likewise compose psalms and hymns to God in every kind of metre and melody imaginable, which they of necessity arrange in more dignified rhythm.

30 Therefore, during six days, each of these individuals, retiring into solitude by himself, philosophizes by himself in one of the places called monasteries, never going outside the threshold of the outer court, and indeed never even looking out. But on the seventh day they all come together as if to meet in a sacred assembly, and they sit down in order according to their ages with all becoming gravity, keeping their hands inside their garments, having their right hand between their chest and their dress, and the left hand down by their side, close to their flank;

31 and then the eldest of them who has the most profound learning in their doctrines comes forward and speaks with steadfast look and with steadfast voice, with great powers of reasoning, and great prudence, not making an exhibition of his oratorical powers like the rhetoricians of old, or the sophists of the present day, but investigating with great pains, and explaining with minute accuracy the precise meaning of the laws, which sits, not indeed at the tips of their ears, but penetrates through their hearing into the soul, and remains there lastingly; and all the rest listen in silence to the praises which he bestows upon the law, showing their assent only by nods of the head, or the eager look of the eyes.

32 And this common holy place to which they all come together on the seventh day is a twofold circuit, being separated partly into the apartment of the men, and partly into a chamber for the women, for women also, in accordance with the usual fashion there, form a part of the audience, having the same feelings of admiration as the men, and having adopted the same sect with equal deliberation and decision;

33 and the wall which is between the houses rises from the ground three or four cubits upwards, like a battlement, and the upper portion rises upwards to the roof without any opening, on two accounts; first of all, in order that the modesty which is so becoming to the female sex may be preserved, and secondly, that the women may be easily able to comprehend what is said being seated within earshot, since there is then nothing which can possibly intercept the voice of him who is speaking.

34 IV. And these expounders of the law, having first of all laid down temperance as a sort of foundation for the soul to rest upon, proceed to build up other virtues on this foundation, and no one of them may take any meat or drink before the setting of the sun, since they judge that the work of philosophizing is one which is worthy of the light, but that the care for the necessities of the body is suitable only to darkness, on which account they appropriate the day to the one occupation, and a brief portion of the night to the other;

35 and some men, in whom there is implanted a more fervent desire of knowledge, can endure to cherish a recollection of their food for three days without even tasting it, and some men are so delighted, and enjoy themselves so exceedingly when regaled by wisdom which supplies them with her doctrines in all possible wealth and abundance, that they can even hold out twice as great a length of time, and will scarcely at the end of six days taste even necessary food, being accustomed, as they say that grasshoppers are, to feed on air; their song, as I imagine, making their scarcity tolerable to them.

36 And they, looking upon the seventh day as one of perfect holiness and a most complete festival, have thought it worthy of a most especial honor; and on it, after taking due care of their soul, they tend their bodies also, giving them, just as they do to their cattle, a complete rest from their continual labors;

37 and they eat nothing of a costly character; but plain bread and a seasoning of salt, which the more luxurious of them to further season with hyssop; and their drink is water from the spring; ... On this account they eat only so far as not to be hungry, and they drink just enough to escape from thirst, avoiding all satiety, ...

38 And there are two kinds of covering, one raiment and the other a house: we have already spoken of their houses, that they are not decorated with any ornaments, but run up in a hurry, being only made to answer such purposes as are absolutely necessary; and in like manner their raiment is of the most ordinary description, just stout enough to ward off cold and heat, being a cloak of some shaggy hide for winter, and a thin mantle or linen shawl in the summer;

39 for in short they practice entire simplicity, ...
continued next post

DCH

PS: Is it just me or do these folks seem a bit "new agey"? Dream channeling (Edgar Cayce), singing of responsive hymns while segregated by sex (Shakers), community (Masons - anyone who has ate at a cafeteria run by a local Masonic hall knows what I mean). But then there is a bit of "beat-nikiness" about them (living in shacks at the lakeshore, drinking only spring water and eating plain bread, reading poetry and thoughtfully discussing deep philosophical matters).
I think they are New agey and connected with Gospel of Thomas John even gnostics. I believe Gospel of THomas is the earliest Gospel, it reflect the historic Jesus and Jesus also spoke Greek and so Gospel of John is also historically valid, in contradiction to the Jesus seminar.

I've read it, English translation of course, and I obviously think Jesus was a Therepeatue. Was it me and my posts that piqued your interest? I believe that correlating Philo with Jesus and Paul represents a quantum leap in understanding the earliest Christians and Jesus.

i.e eating plain bread = eucharist
drinking clear water = gospel of john "drinking water Samirtian woman" gospel thomas "drinking spring water"
teaching parables = reading poetry
Paul and discussing deep philosophical matters.
healing = Jesus miracle healing
poverty = Jesus teaching on poverty

I was going to reveal it over a series of posts.

You beat me to it but I was going to correlate Philo's eyewitness account with Gospel and Paul in the above manner. Philo personally observed Jesus as a member of this sect.
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Old 08-06-2012, 08:05 PM   #26
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you spent several hours over the weekend just on this? was it b/c of me? :constern01:
Evidentally, I do not enjoy a very exciting life. Actually, I had also latched onto that same passage, but for different reasons, but started the research when I saw your post.

Dont worry about wasting my time. I also wasted a lot of time and money ($50 in journal articles) researching the dating of Eusebius' Church History.

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You speak Greek? also, what are your thoughts to date?
Never spoke it. I took a couple beginner level courses in college so I could read the NT in the original language. Forgotten more than I remember, though.

DCH
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Old 08-06-2012, 08:07 PM   #27
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you spent several hours over the weekend just on this? was it b/c of me? :constern01:
Evidentally, I do not enjoy a very exciting life. Actually, I had also latched onto that same passage, but for different reasons, but started the research when I saw your post.

Dont worry about wasting my time. I also wasted a lot of time and money ($50 in journal articles) researching the dating of Eusebius' Church History.

Quote:
You speak Greek? also, what are your thoughts to date?
Never spoke it. I took a couple beginner level courses in college so I could read the NT in the original language. Forgotten more than I remember, though.

DCH
ok I'm glad to hear my post stimulated you thinking about this for hours. what are your thoughts on Philo's Therepeatue and Jesus?
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Old 08-06-2012, 08:31 PM   #28
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PS: Is it just me or do these folks seem a bit "new agey"? Dream channeling (Edgar Cayce), singing of responsive hymns while segregated by sex (Shakers), community (Masons - anyone who has ate at a cafeteria run by a local Masonic hall knows what I mean). But then there is a bit of "beat-nikiness" about them (living in shacks at the lakeshore, drinking only spring water and eating plain bread, reading poetry and thoughtfully discussing deep philosophical matters).
I think they are New agey and connected with Gospel[s] of Thomas, John, even gnostics. I believe Gospel of THomas is the earliest Gospel, it reflect the historic Jesus and Jesus also spoke Greek and so Gospel of John is also historically valid, in contradiction to the Jesus seminar.

I've read it, English translation of course, and I obviously think Jesus was a Therepeatue. Was it me and my posts that piqued your interest? I believe that correlating Philo with Jesus and Paul represents a quantum leap in understanding the earliest Christians and Jesus.

i.e eating plain bread = eucharist
drinking clear water = gospel of john "drinking water Samaritan woman" gospel thomas "drinking spring water"
teaching parables = reading poetry
Paul and discussing deep philosophical matters.
healing = Jesus miracle healing
poverty = Jesus teaching on poverty

I was going to reveal it over a series of posts.

You beat me to it but I was going to correlate Philo's eyewitness account with Gospel and Paul in the above manner. Philo personally observed Jesus as a member of this sect.
Quote:
ok I'm glad to hear my post stimulated you thinking about this for hours. what are your thoughts on Philo's Therepeatue and Jesus?
Well, I wouldn't go that far.

The 4th century writer Eusebius equated early Christians with the Therapeutae, and his contemporary Epiphanius of Salamis, who described Philo's Therapeutae but called them Jesseans, did the same, but I do not believe they had any sort of hard evidence of this, but rather an eagerness to push back examples of early Christians as far as they could. This might suggest a common belief, as Epiphanius thought Eusebius was a heretic (a closet Arian)., so I doubt he borrowed from him. Eusebius, for his part, could have borrowed from Epiphanius. OR, they both borrowed on common tradition. However, tradition alone doesn't prove anything, as the tradition could be wrong, or just wishful thinking.

However, it is not impossible that early Christianity shared ideas and traditions in common with the Therapeute (and Pharisees, Essenes, Hellenic private associations, etc) :constern01:

To be honest, I have never considered whether the Gospel of Thomas was a Therapeutic text. Wiki suggests that the Testament of Job might also be another one. Damn, another couple hours of study ...

DCH
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Old 08-06-2012, 08:35 PM   #29
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I think they are New agey and connected with Gospel[s] of Thomas, John, even gnostics. I believe Gospel of THomas is the earliest Gospel, it reflect the historic Jesus and Jesus also spoke Greek and so Gospel of John is also historically valid, in contradiction to the Jesus seminar.

I've read it, English translation of course, and I obviously think Jesus was a Therepeatue. Was it me and my posts that piqued your interest? I believe that correlating Philo with Jesus and Paul represents a quantum leap in understanding the earliest Christians and Jesus.

i.e eating plain bread = eucharist
drinking clear water = gospel of john "drinking water Samaritan woman" gospel thomas "drinking spring water"
teaching parables = reading poetry
Paul and discussing deep philosophical matters.
healing = Jesus miracle healing
poverty = Jesus teaching on poverty

I was going to reveal it over a series of posts.

You beat me to it but I was going to correlate Philo's eyewitness account with Gospel and Paul in the above manner. Philo personally observed Jesus as a member of this sect.
Well, I wouldn't go that far.

The 4th century writer Eusebius equated early Christians with the Therapeutae, and his contemporary Epiphanius of Salamis, who described Philo's Therapeutae but called them Jesseans, did the same, but I do not believe they had any sort of hard evidence of this, but rather an eagerness to push back examples of early Christians as far as they could. This might suggest a common belief, as Epiphanius thought Eusebius was a heretic (a closet Arian)., so I doubt he borrowed from him. Eusebius, for his part, could have borrowed from Epiphanius. OR, they both borrowed on common tradition. However, tradition alone doesn't prove anything, as the tradition could be wrong, or just wishful thinking.

However, it is not impossible that early Christianity shared ideas and traditions in common with the Therapeute (and Pharisees, Essenes, Hellenic private associations, etc) :constern01:

DCH
My position is Jesus himself was a Therapeute, and Philo's description of Therapeute can be used to establish the historicity of Gospels. I have already spent hours on the implications of this theory, and this has tremendous implications in historical Jesus studies and Jesus myth. The ramifications upends mainstream (i.e Paula Fredrickson, Bart Ehrman, Dominic Crossan) Jesus historicity, and obviously puts a nail in coffin of Jesus myth.

What do you think are the ramifications of identifying Jesus himself with Philo's Therapeute?
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Old 08-06-2012, 08:50 PM   #30
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The Perils of Parallels by Jim Davila.
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