Freethought & Rationalism Archive

WILLOWTREE · 12-03-2004, 03:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack the Bodiless

Adolf Hitler was a Christian creationist:

He also claimed to have been "doing the Lord's work" in perscuting the Jews. You shouldn't have a problem with that, because:

...Which would include sending Hitler as an agent of his will, yes?

IOW, you believe Hitler.

A coward who committed genocide is believed at face value.

You don't believe Hitler's claims - you are reverse crusading against christianity.

Hitler's actions prove he was an atheist.

But there are plenty of good atheists so Hitler was just a piece of shit with power.

WT

funinspace · 12-03-2004, 04:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WILLOWTREE

IOW, you believe Hitler.

A coward who committed genocide is believed at face value.

You don't believe Hitler's claims - you are reverse crusading against christianity.

Hitler's actions prove he was an atheist.

But there are plenty of good atheists so Hitler was just a piece of shit with power.

WT

:rolling:
A coward who committed genocide is believed at face value.

You don't believe Joshua's claims - you are reverse crusading against reason.

Joshua's actions prove he was an atheist.

But there are plenty of good Christians so Joshua was just a piece of shit with power.

Chris Weimer · 12-03-2004, 04:16 PM

A. Hitler committed genocide
B. Because of A. Hitler shouldn't be believed
C. Because he shouldn't be believed, we should assume he is an atheist
D. Because there are good atheists, Hitler is just a piece of shit with power.

That is your argument, no? Very non sequitur, but let's do some substitutions.

A. God committed genocide
B. Because of A. God shouldn't be believed
C. Because he shouldn't be believed, we should assume he is an atheist
D. Because there are good atheists, God is just a piece of shit with power.

:thumbs:

Chris Weimer · 12-03-2004, 04:19 PM

Dang, beat me to it.

funinspace · 12-03-2004, 04:28 PM

Yeah, but mine was more of a cut-paste job...ok on a more serious level...

Willowtree,

By your logic what does that make Augustine, Calvin and a host of others? More atheists? Or what of every anglo-saxon who participated in the genocide against the peoples living in what we now call the United States? Does it have to be elevated to genocide to make one a default atheist? Or does being a murderer get you there as well?

Weltall · 12-03-2004, 05:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WILLOWTREE

IOW, you believe Hitler.

You believe God, who is allegedly far better at genocide than Hitler could ever aspire to be. Face it, compared to the things your God did, Hitler is small potatoes. I assume you're ok with worshipping a genocidal bastard?

WILLOWTREE · 12-03-2004, 05:08 PM

The issue is the OP:

http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=107862

We can argue the previous points of those who oppose me IF somebody accepts the challenge of post #1/OP.

Once again, any takers ?

WT

Sensei Meela · 12-03-2004, 05:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Willowtree

Righteousness: whatever God does.

Have you met my friend Euthyphro? See, maybe you could help him out with his little dilemma....

Quote:

Hitler's actions prove he was an atheist.

Yes. And God's actions prove He's not as good as His word, either. [Afterall, they both committed genocide for their personal ideologies.]

So let's see if I got this right:

p1) Ordering/committing genocide is immoral
p2) Christians aren't immoral
c1) Christians don't order/committ genocide

p3) Hitler ordered/committed genocide
p4) [from C1] Christians don't order/committ genocide
c2) Hitler is not a Christian

p5) God ordered/committed genocide
p6) [p1] Ordering/committing genocide is immoral
c3) God is not immoral

...???

Anything other than a special pleading to offer? How about your take at this challenge; it's recycled, from when I posted it at another message board, so forgive the disjointed feel.

Quote:

Originally posted by Drunken Master:
[This] is meant as an examination of the claim that God (aka, 'the God of the Bible,' aka the 'Omni-max Creator God' [OCG]) is 'loving' (or, more specifically, omni-benevolent: lit. "all good," alt. "infinitely good" or "maximally good"); this will almost certainly involve discussion of the other omni-attributes (sp. power and knowledge).

David's Census is here presented as evidence to the contrary. The account is also a prime example of Biblical contradiction/inconsistency/errancy and so this thread will touch on those, too. As before, I am quoting from [blt 2 go] (a Christian, to boot) from a different message board who succinctly summarizes the events surrounding David's Census in a format that makes the contradictions (etc.) readily apparent:

Quote:

(To save bandwidth, the three accounts of this event are at 2 Samuel 24:1-25, 1 Chronicles 21:1-28 and 1 Chronicles 27:24. Please read at your leisure)

Having read such, I have a few questions. Most are multiple-choice, to make it easy. (“A�?= 2 Sam., “B�?= 1 Chron. 21 and “C�?=1 Chron. 27)

1. When did God get angry?
A. Before the census
B. Because of the census
C. Because of the census

2. Who incited David to take the Census?
A. God
B. Satan
C. Nobody.

3. What human mandated the census?
A. David
B. David
C. Joab.

4. Who protested against the census?
A. Joab and his captains.
B. Joab.
C. Nobody, Joab did the census.

5. What was wrong with taking a census?
A. Nothing, God mandated it in Numbers 26:2
B. Nothing, God required it for taxes in Exodus 30:12
C. Nothing, They just did one in the preceding 23 verses!

6. How long did it take to do the census?
A. Nine months, 20 days.
B. Not recorded
C. Didn’t complete the census

7. Who all was counted?
A. All tribes
B. All tribes except Levi and Benjamin
C. Didn’t complete the census.

8. What was the number of the census?
A. 1.3 Million
B. 1.57 Million (with LESS tribes counted!)
C. Number was deliberately not recorded.

9. What stopped the census?
A. Done counting
B. Done counting
C. Wrath of God, census not completed.

10. Who took the blame for doing the census?
A. David
B. David
C. Not recorded, but apparently Joab.

11. What is the name of the Jebusite where the angel stopped?
A. Araunah
B. Ornan
C. Umm…What Jebusite?

12. What did the Jebusite do when he saw the Angel of Death?
A. Doesn’t say the Jebusite saw the Angel.
B. Just kept working, just kept working…
C. Excuse me? Jebusite? I do not see a Jebusite?

13. What did David buy from the Jebusite?
A. The Threshing floor and the oxen.
B. “the place�?
C. Are you crazy? THERE IS NO JEBUSITE!

14. How much did David pay the Jebusite?
A. 50 shekels of silver
B. 600 shekels of gold
C. @#*&! There is no Jebusite!

And Now for the Essay portion of our quiz. In your apologetic, discuss the theological implications of God getting so angry He desires to kill 70,000 people, but His nature of Justice mandates someone has to sin first. Also discuss the punishment of David’s sin being 70,000 OTHER people have to die. Also discuss Satan’s limitation of “tempting�? others unless God allows it. Or (in the alternative) discuss the ramifications of Satan and God working together to allow God to kill 70,000 people for David’s sin.

The important element in the claim that God is not omnibenevolent is contained in the 'Essay' portion -- that the punishment meted out for the 'sin' David committed in the Census is that 70,000 people are killed. Laid bare in premise conclusion form, it looks like this:

P1. Good behavior is characterized as benevolence
P2. Omni- is a qualifier that means 'all' or 'every'
C1. Omnibenvolence is "'all good' behavior"

P3. Justice is fairness in action
P4. The meting out of punishments commensurate with the crime is fair
C2. Justice is meting out a punishment commensurate with the crime

P5. Injustice is unfairness
P6. Punishing person B for the crime person A commits is unfair
C3. Injustice is punishing person B for the crime person A commits

P7. Unjust behavior is not good
P8. (From C1) There are only good behaviors in omnibenevolence
C4. There is no unjustness in omnibenevolence

P9. God punishes 70,000 people for David's crime
P8. (From C2 and C3) The punishment is not comensurate with the crime, nor directed at the perpetrator, and is unjust
C5. (From C1 and C4) God is not omnibenevolent

Before the defense may begin, I will also repeat what this fellow said (though it is essentialy an appeal to emotion, I think it is poignant and effective):

Quote:

Now, let's bring it home... Imagine god's angel one night coming into your house and slaughtering your wife, children, grandchildren, brothers, sisters, etc. Every one you hold dear.

God is standing there, and you ask, "Why?"
God: "Because Bob across the street sinned and that really ticked me off."

Would you dry your tears and say, "Ha. There's god's justice for you. Makes sense to me. Bob sins. I lose my family."

...worse, sin doesn't even have to be involved [remember the blind guy?]. Take my example of the angel slaughtering your family.

Now when you ask, "Why?"
God says, "To show I am sovereign"

Yep - I am sure that will be MUCH more comforting than thinking it was because of "Bob's Sin."

C'mon, who is kidding whom?

Finally, this is but one example of said injustice, cruelty and anti-omnibenevolence in a book littered throughtout with them. We are free to discuss other such cases (for instance, the Eden story, the Flood story, the Exodus story, the Amelikites story, etc.), of course.

WILLOWTREE · 12-03-2004, 05:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Weltall

You believe God, who is allegedly far better at genocide than Hitler could ever aspire to be. Face it, compared to the things your God did, Hitler is small potatoes. I assume you're ok with worshipping a genocidal bastard?

Cause of failure to tell the difference between Hitler and God = atheism.

No surprise.

atheism: against theism.

In the greek, when an "a" is placed before a word the meaning is reversed.

Atheists have always disguised themselves as believers in order to negate the invulnerable criticism that their conclusions are in reality their worldview speaking.

Example: Jesus Seminar.

Hitler

Darwin

Fascism

What is the common denominator ?

Answer: deception.

What is deception ?

Indigenous quality of Satan.

Who is Satan ?

Indigenous claim of the Bible.

Proof of Satan ?

see above.

Sensei Meela · 12-03-2004, 05:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sensei Meela

Anything other than a special pleading to offer?

Quote:

Originally Posted by WILLOWTREE

Cause of failure to tell the difference between Hitler and God = atheism.

So the answer is "no," I see.

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

12-03-2004, 04:16 PM	#13
Chris Weimer Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: none Posts: 9,879	A. Hitler committed genocide B. Because of A. Hitler shouldn't be believed C. Because he shouldn't be believed, we should assume he is an atheist D. Because there are good atheists, Hitler is just a piece of shit with power. That is your argument, no? Very non sequitur, but let's do some substitutions. A. God committed genocide B. Because of A. God shouldn't be believed C. Because he shouldn't be believed, we should assume he is an atheist D. Because there are good atheists, God is just a piece of shit with power. :thumbs:

12-03-2004, 04:19 PM	#14
Chris Weimer Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: none Posts: 9,879	Dang, beat me to it.

12-03-2004, 04:28 PM	#15
funinspace Contributor Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: North West usa Posts: 10,245	Yeah, but mine was more of a cut-paste job...ok on a more serious level... Willowtree, By your logic what does that make Augustine, Calvin and a host of others? More atheists? Or what of every anglo-saxon who participated in the genocide against the peoples living in what we now call the United States? Does it have to be elevated to genocide to make one a default atheist? Or does being a murderer get you there as well?

12-03-2004, 05:08 PM	#17
WILLOWTREE Banned Join Date: May 2004 Location: LOS ANGELES Posts: 544	The issue is the OP: http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=107862 We can argue the previous points of those who oppose me IF somebody accepts the challenge of post #1/OP. Once again, any takers ? WT

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.