Freethought & Rationalism Archive

stephan huller · 09-08-2010, 02:54 PM

On the idea that Christians might have engaged in dangerous practices to secure their priesthood. In Haer. 26 Augustine writes:

They [the Montanists] are said to have polluted sacraments [sacramenta funesta], for they are said to prepare their supposed Eucharist from the blood of a one-year-old infant which they extort from its entire body through minute puncture wounds, mixing it with flour and hence making bread. If the child should die, it is considered among them as a martyr; but if it lives as a great priest.

I am not saying this is necessarily describing castration. I don't know what it is describing. However it does suggest that rites which might not ensure a large number of priests surviving the ritual could indeed have existed among the heresies.

stephan huller · 09-08-2010, 02:54 PM

Quote:

But I thought we were dealing with a religion whose roots are certainly Jewish.

Jacob was castrated and became equal to God.

stephan huller · 09-08-2010, 02:56 PM

Quote:

1 Cor 7:5-9 all but exclude the possibility that Paul was castrated. He calls his chastity "a gift from God", and speaks of the need to "marry" for those who can't exercise "self-control" (like he does). The last verse shows that castration was not considered an option by Paul.

But Tertullian makes clear the Marcionites DID engage in ritual castration in some form. They must have interpreted the material differently or the section did not appear in their Apostolikon.

spin · 09-08-2010, 03:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

Quote:

But I thought we were dealing with a religion whose roots are certainly Jewish.

Jacob was castrated and became equal to God.

You do stretch the facts.

spin

spamandham · 09-08-2010, 03:03 PM

I found an interesting ancient etymological link between castration and the oil Castoreum, which is an oil that may have been used for anointing:

http://www.billcasselman.com/cwod_ar...castor_two.htm

Could "anointing" have been a euphemism for castration?

stephan huller · 09-08-2010, 03:04 PM

'Facts' I thought we were talking about religion and the possible interpretation of scripture by whack jobs in the first and second centuries. The question is again - 'is it possible?' rather than 'is it true?' or 'is it correct?'

stephan huller · 09-08-2010, 03:06 PM

Quote:

I found an interesting ancient etymological link between castration and the oil Castoreum, which is an oil that may have been used for annointing:

http://www.billcasselman.com/cwod_ar...castor_two.htm

Could "anointing" have been a euphemism for castration?

Tertullian makes a play on words using castor and Marcion in Book One. No beaver was ever more self-castrating than Marcion (from memory). Of course beaver has a whole different connotation (at least in Canadian English). I can still remember the 'If you're Canadian show me your beaver' T-shirts growing up.

Ah, the memories of Scarboro ...

stephan huller · 09-08-2010, 03:09 PM

And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day. And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was strained, as he wrestled with him. And he said: 'Let me go, for the day breaketh.' And he said: 'I will not let thee go, except thou bless me.' And he said unto him: 'What is thy name?' And he said: 'Jacob.' And he said: 'Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel; for thou hast striven with God and with men, and hast prevailed.' And Jacob asked him, and said: 'Tell me, I pray thee, thy name.' And he said: 'Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name?' And he blessed him there. And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: 'for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.' And the sun rose upon him as he passed over Peniel, and he limped upon his thigh. Therefore the children of Israel eat not the sinew of the thigh-vein which is upon the hollow of the thigh, unto this day; because he touched the hollow of Jacob's thigh, even in the sinew of the thigh-vein. [Gen 32:25 - 33]

Jewish tradition has always maintained that the angel here gave his name to Jacob. The angel wrenched the "hip" or "thigh" (Hebrew kaf-yerech, Gen 32:26) that was the symbolic source of his fertility. When the same word reappears in Gen 46:26 - "All the souls that came with Jacob into Egypt, which came out of his loins, besides Jacob's sons' wives, all the souls were three score and six" - clearly underscore that the word here means 'sexual organ' or the part of the body which is responsible for fertility.

spin · 09-08-2010, 03:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

'Facts' I thought we were talking about religion and the possible interpretation of scripture by whack jobs in the first and second centuries. The question is again - 'is it possible?' rather than 'is it true?' or 'is it correct?'

I was talking about your crap reading of Genesis regarding Jacob. You can see what the text says (god strikes Jacob on the hip socket) and you declare that god castrated Jacob. You are plainly stretching the facts. But this is endemic.

And you might just want to consider for a moment the notion that Jacob wrestled in Gen 32 and in Gen 36 Rachel gives birth to Benjamin. Ooops.

And no shit Stephan, is that (touching Jacob's private parts) what you were referring to? Who'da guessed?

spin

stephan huller · 09-08-2010, 03:16 PM

Again we are not dealing with what was intended by the author of Genesis. Christians make an art of reading passages out of context. The question is could the example of Jacob have been used to justify castration by some Christian groups. Again, not 'is it true' or 'is it the correct reading' but 'is it possible?'

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09-08-2010, 02:54 PM	#31
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	On the idea that Christians might have engaged in dangerous practices to secure their priesthood. In Haer. 26 Augustine writes: They [the Montanists] are said to have polluted sacraments [sacramenta funesta], for they are said to prepare their supposed Eucharist from the blood of a one-year-old infant which they extort from its entire body through minute puncture wounds, mixing it with flour and hence making bread. If the child should die, it is considered among them as a martyr; but if it lives as a great priest. I am not saying this is necessarily describing castration. I don't know what it is describing. However it does suggest that rites which might not ensure a large number of priests surviving the ritual could indeed have existed among the heresies.

09-08-2010, 03:03 PM	#35
spamandham Contributor Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Dallas, TX Posts: 11,525	I found an interesting ancient etymological link between castration and the oil Castoreum, which is an oil that may have been used for anointing: http://www.billcasselman.com/cwod_ar...castor_two.htm Could "anointing" have been a euphemism for castration?

09-08-2010, 03:04 PM	#36
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	'Facts' I thought we were talking about religion and the possible interpretation of scripture by whack jobs in the first and second centuries. The question is again - 'is it possible?' rather than 'is it true?' or 'is it correct?'

09-08-2010, 03:09 PM	#38
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day. And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was strained, as he wrestled with him. And he said: 'Let me go, for the day breaketh.' And he said: 'I will not let thee go, except thou bless me.' And he said unto him: 'What is thy name?' And he said: 'Jacob.' And he said: 'Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel; for thou hast striven with God and with men, and hast prevailed.' And Jacob asked him, and said: 'Tell me, I pray thee, thy name.' And he said: 'Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name?' And he blessed him there. And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: 'for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.' And the sun rose upon him as he passed over Peniel, and he limped upon his thigh. Therefore the children of Israel eat not the sinew of the thigh-vein which is upon the hollow of the thigh, unto this day; because he touched the hollow of Jacob's thigh, even in the sinew of the thigh-vein. [Gen 32:25 - 33] Jewish tradition has always maintained that the angel here gave his name to Jacob. The angel wrenched the "hip" or "thigh" (Hebrew kaf-yerech, Gen 32:26) that was the symbolic source of his fertility. When the same word reappears in Gen 46:26 - "All the souls that came with Jacob into Egypt, which came out of his loins, besides Jacob's sons' wives, all the souls were three score and six" - clearly underscore that the word here means 'sexual organ' or the part of the body which is responsible for fertility.

09-08-2010, 03:16 PM	#40
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	Again we are not dealing with what was intended by the author of Genesis. Christians make an art of reading passages out of context. The question is could the example of Jacob have been used to justify castration by some Christian groups. Again, not 'is it true' or 'is it the correct reading' but 'is it possible?'

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