Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Iskander · 10-15-2012, 02:06 PM

Would you clarify this for me?
Does Marcion associate leavened bread with the Creator or with Jesus?

Who is inviting the people who refused to come to dinner in Luke 14? the Creator or Jesus?
[4:31 AM]

stephan huller · 10-15-2012, 02:09 PM

It would seem that there was a school of thought within Christianity which identified 'leaven' as meaning an added (unwelcomed) - even 'Jewish' - teaching to the body of Christ. The Marcionites would seem to fall into that category.

stephan huller · 10-15-2012, 02:22 PM

The first evidence of the use of leaven in the Roman rite occurs in the Liber Pontificalis where it is said that under Miltiades (310 - 314). He was the bishop in control of Rome when Constantine entered the city on 29 October 312. It is then we hear:

Quote:

Manichaeans were discovered in the city. From that day he brought it about that consecrated offerings from what the bishop consecrated should be sent around the churches; this is called the fermentum.

Clearly this implies that part of Constantine's efforts to bring Christianity under one rule included - temporarily at least - to adopt the same host. By Alaric's conquest of the city in 410 it probably reverted back to its 'heretical' ways.

andrewcriddle · 10-17-2012, 11:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

The first evidence of the use of leaven in the Roman rite occurs in the Liber Pontificalis where it is said that under Miltiades (310 - 314). He was the bishop in control of Rome when Constantine entered the city on 29 October 312. It is then we hear:

Quote:

Manichaeans were discovered in the city. From that day he brought it about that consecrated offerings from what the bishop consecrated should be sent around the churches; this is called the fermentum.

Clearly this implies that part of Constantine's efforts to bring Christianity under one rule included - temporarily at least - to adopt the same host. By Alaric's conquest of the city in 410 it probably reverted back to its 'heretical' ways.

Apart from the general problems of using the Liber Pontificalis as an historical source, this sccount seems nearly duplicated in the section on Pope Siricius

Quote:

He ordained that no priest could perform masses during all the week, unless he received from the bishop of the particular district the consecrated sign which is called the leaven.
He found Manicheans in the city and dispatched them into exile and ordained that they should not partake of communion with the faithful, because the holy body of the Lord ought not to be mutilated in a polluted mouth.

Andrew Criddle

stephan huller · 10-17-2012, 12:35 PM

You're the best Andrew. Thank you so much.

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10-15-2012, 02:06 PM	#51
Iskander Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 3,619	Would you clarify this for me? Does Marcion associate leavened bread with the Creator or with Jesus? Who is inviting the people who refused to come to dinner in Luke 14? the Creator or Jesus? [4:31 AM]

10-15-2012, 02:09 PM	#52
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	It would seem that there was a school of thought within Christianity which identified 'leaven' as meaning an added (unwelcomed) - even 'Jewish' - teaching to the body of Christ. The Marcionites would seem to fall into that category.

10-17-2012, 12:35 PM	#55
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	You're the best Andrew. Thank you so much.

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