kcdad

Exactly, and yet Rome killed him anyway? They knew what he was saying in "secret code".

And what belongs to Caesar, Jesus might ask. NOTHING. And what belongs to God? EVERYTHING.

You are oh so very close.

Jesus was remade into the Roman mythological God. It is the corrupted message of the Bible. The TRUE message of the Gospel is that the way of life that is outside Roman (or American, British, Japanese or any other kind) imperialism. There is a way of life that leads to justice and mercy... and there is the imperial way. The way of death. THESE are the teachings of Jesus of Nazareth and John the Baptizer.

Loomis

Not in Acts 5:30.

Acts 5:30 says Jesus was murdered by Jews - not the Romans.
No crucifixion either.

Just 'hung on a tree' per the Jewish law in Deuteronomy 21:22-23.

kcdad

Acts 5 is wrong. OK? Acts 2:23 says specifically "crucified". Cruc from crux or cross. Maybe they killed him twice for the fun of it.

aa5874

Where do you get you information from?

It was the Jews who caused Jesus to be killed or who killed him according to the Pauline writer.

Look at the passage again in 1 Thessalonians 2.14-16. The Jews even attempted to stone Jesus according to gJohn.

Joh 10:33 -

But, Jesus in the NT will show that you are wrong. Caesar has "mucho dinero", all the money in the Roman Empire.

Look again at this passage.

Mark 12.14-17 But you are so very far. You have nothing but your imagination.

Please show me the historical source that have YOUR TRUE MESSAGE of the Gospel.

Now, this is John the Baptist with his anti-Jewish remarks. Not even John the Baptist cursed the Roman Emperor, the GODS of the Roman Empire who worshiped Apollo and Jupiter, but he cursed the Jews, the Pharisees and Sadducees who worshiped the Father of their God, Jesus.

Matthew 3.4- There is no record that Jesus or John the Baptist told Pilate not to worship Tiberius as a God, and no record that Jesus told Pilate at his trial that he, Pilate, and Tiberius were of the Devil and Roman citizens were VIPERS.

In the NT, Jesus and Pauline writers appear to be pro-Roman and anti-Jewish.

Please tell where you found the TRUE MESSAGE of Jesus?

kcdad

nope. I am done with you. Jesus, Paul and John were Roman patriots. The Romans invented Jesus. Bye bye

aa5874

You're done long long time ago. You have no historical source to support your claims about Jesus.

But, I am not done yet, I have a MULTIPLICITY of sources to support my position.

You have no historical source to show that Jesus, PAUL and John were Roman patriots. You have only imagined it.

The extant information suggest that Jesus and John were not Roman patriots but were fictitious 1st century characters invented by an apocalyptic writer who most likely thought that a conflagration was about to occur.

It must be noted that Peter saw Jesus walk on water, and Peter, James and John saw Jesus transfigure and resurrect. You would agree these events are non-historical.

Now, Paul met Peter, James and John after he got saved from a bright light that blinded him to reality. PAUL admitted that he can't tell what happened to him but amazingly the author of Acts knows exactly what happened to Paul.

You must agree that the conversion of Saul/Paul is non-historical.

Jesus, Paul and John are just stories.

And, again there is no historical source to show that the Romans did invent Jesus since Justin Martyr had to present a petition to the Roman Emperor and the Senate to tell about Jesus and how to deal fairly with his believers.

This is Justin Martyr in "First Apology"

grog225

This is probably an interpolation. See Birger Pearson on this. There are areas of Pearson that can be expanded (probably have been by now), but this should give you a good idea about 1 Thess 2:14-16

For Paul's views on the civil authorities see Romans 13, which is completely incompatible with a view that Jesus was crucified by Rome. Paul doesn't believe Jesus Christ was crucified by Romans or Jews. He identifies the "rulers of the age" and the elemental powers, i.e. heavenly spirits, which is inline with later christian gnosticism.(see McRae, the Jewish Background of the Sophia Myth, 1970.)

1 Corinthians 2 pretty much clears up who Paul is talking about. Some scholars try to wedge the Romans into this by saying that earthly rulers were used by these elemental powers, but Paul nowhere hints at that and so we must, sticking to a minimalist methodology, discount that unless new insight is shed on this material.

To add human agency to the Crucifixion as described in 1 Cor 2 is a gratuitous attempt to harmonize Paul with the gospel story or at least with a human Jesus. (see Lee, 1970, The Demonic Powers in Paul, both for a description of what 1 Cor 2 really says and for an example of wedging human agency in there by hook or crook).

In short: Paul, in light of Pearson on 1 Thess and what I am saying about 1 Cor 2 never alludes to Jesus being crucified by either Romans or Jews or any human agency whatsoever.

grog225

Well, Acts is mostly fiction.

aa5874

But, what you are asserting makes little sense. The only history there is of Saul/Paul comes out of the canonical NT.

The Church writers have placed Saul/Paul after Jesus left earth after he was supposedly crucified, died, resurrected and ascended to heaven.

Saul/Paul was somehow converted through some kind of bright light that made him blind to reality and heard the voice of Jesus from heaven and certain things were revealed to him.

Paul claimed he persecuted the faith that he now preached and that he met characters called James, Cephas and John who were apostles of the crucified, resurrected and ascended Jesus.

The Jesus Christ that Paul preached is the same Jesus, the offspring of the Holy Ghost and the Virgin Mary that is in the canonical NT. It is for that precise reason why the Pauline writings have been canonised.

In order to show that the canonical Pauline letters are about some other Jesus you MUST produce some Pauline writings where the writer claimed clearly that Jesus was not crucified at all.

The name Jesus is a Jewish name not the name of an angel or supernatural being. Paul's Jesus was a God/man just as the Jesus of the Gospels.

There are numerous passages all over the Pauline writings where it is claimed Jesus was raised from the dead. Only an entity with flesh can be physically raised from the dead based on the Church writers.

Marcion's Phantom could NOTbe raised from the dead or even die.

There are passages in the Pauline writings that claim Jesus was crucified, again only an entity with flesh can be physically crucified and spill blood.

Marcion's Phantom could not be crucified. It had no flesh.

If the Pauline Jesus was not crucified then the writings would not be canonised and he would have been deemed a heretic just like Marcion.

The Church writers used the Pauline writings to counter Marcion's Phantom.

To understand the FLESH of Jesus, please read Tertullian's "On the Flesh of Christ".

kcdad

You have nothing but your own prejudices and presumptions.

Paul's conversion is historical, it just isn't factual. Paul experienced something, probably a stroke on the road to Damascus.
I never claimed Rome invented Jesus... that seems to be YOUR fantasy. I was "agreeing with you".

"But, I am not done yet, I have a MULTIPLICITY of sources to support my position. "

You have no sources that support your position... you are trying to prove something that you would not even attempt against anyone else in the entire history of mankind. You are quoting things you don't understand from a culture you are not familiar with and expecting everyone to go all gaga because you repeat the same phrase every time...

Quote just one first century source that states Jesus of Nazareth did not exist.
You have the same type of argument as the birthers. It is true because I want it to be.