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Old 01-12-2009, 07:06 PM   #81
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No they are not evidence that some people thought Apollionius was a God.
Eusebius against Hierocles:
We learn, in a word, that he was born superior to mankind in general, and so he is described from the first moment of his birth throughout his history. Anyhow on one occasion after he had loosed himself from his bonds, his historian adds the remark: "Then Damis declares he for the first time clearly understood the nature of Apollonius, that it was divine and superior to humanity. For without offering any sacrifice, -- for how could he offer one in the prison? -- and without offering any prayer, without a single word, he just laughed at his fetters." And at the end of the book we learn that his grave was nowhere to be found on earth; but that he went to heaven in his physical body accompanied by hymns and dances. Naturally if he was so great as he is described in the above, he may be said "to have wooed philosophy in a more divine manner than Pythagoras, or Empedocles, or Plato." For these reasons we must surely class the man among the gods.
Again:
After this Philostratus sets forth four counts of the indictment which he imagines it will be easy for his hero to defend himself from, and he admits that he has collected these out of a great many others. Of these the first was: What induced him to wear a different robe from everybody else? and the second: Why was it that men esteemed him to be a god? the third, How had he managed to predict the plague to the Ephesians? and last of all: In whose behoof had he gone to a certain field and cut up the Arcadian boy?
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Old 01-12-2009, 07:17 PM   #82
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No they are not evidence that some people thought Apollionius was a God.
Eusebius against Hierocles:
We learn, in a word, that he was born superior to mankind in general, and so he is described from the first moment of his birth throughout his history. Anyhow on one occasion after he had loosed himself from his bonds, his historian adds the remark: "Then Damis declares he for the first time clearly understood the nature of Apollonius, that it was divine and superior to humanity. For without offering any sacrifice, -- for how could he offer one in the prison? -- and without offering any prayer, without a single word, he just laughed at his fetters." And at the end of the book we learn that his grave was nowhere to be found on earth; but that he went to heaven in his physical body accompanied by hymns and dances. Naturally if he was so great as he is described in the above, he may be said "to have wooed philosophy in a more divine manner than Pythagoras, or Empedocles, or Plato." For these reasons we must surely class the man among the gods.
Again:
After this Philostratus sets forth four counts of the indictment which he imagines it will be easy for his hero to defend himself from, and he admits that he has collected these out of a great many others. Of these the first was: What induced him to wear a different robe from everybody else? and the second: Why was it that men esteemed him to be a god? the third, How had he managed to predict the plague to the Ephesians? and last of all: In whose behoof had he gone to a certain field and cut up the Arcadian boy?
Ben.
Eusebius reference. Cue Pete.

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Old 01-12-2009, 07:22 PM   #83
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No they are not evidence that some people thought Apollionius was a God.
Eusebius against Hierocles:
We learn, in a word, that he was born superior to mankind in general, and so he is described from the first moment of his birth throughout his history. Anyhow on one occasion after he had loosed himself from his bonds, his historian adds the remark: "Then Damis declares he for the first time clearly understood the nature of Apollonius, that it was divine and superior to humanity. For without offering any sacrifice, -- for how could he offer one in the prison? -- and without offering any prayer, without a single word, he just laughed at his fetters." And at the end of the book we learn that his grave was nowhere to be found on earth; but that he went to heaven in his physical body accompanied by hymns and dances. Naturally if he was so great as he is described in the above, he may be said "to have wooed philosophy in a more divine manner than Pythagoras, or Empedocles, or Plato." For these reasons we must surely class the man among the gods.
Again:
After this Philostratus sets forth four counts of the indictment which he imagines it will be easy for his hero to defend himself from, and he admits that he has collected these out of a great many others. Of these the first was: What induced him to wear a different robe from everybody else? and the second: Why was it that men esteemed him to be a god? the third, How had he managed to predict the plague to the Ephesians? and last of all: In whose behoof had he gone to a certain field and cut up the Arcadian boy?
Ben.
He was good at philosophy so we should class him among the gods - ironic exaggeration. None of this stuff is in the Letters of Apollonius or the Life of Apollonius.

Ben, do you really believe that these are good evidence that Apollonius was considered to be one of the Roman Gods? Do you think this really is evidence of a cult that believed that Apollonius was a God and worshiped him?

This is written hundreds of years after the time of Apollonius. How is this better evidence then the writings of Kersey Graves? If I want to prove that Isis was a virgin then I need a primary source, but if you want to prove that Apollonius was a God, then any trash will do nicely.
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Old 01-12-2009, 08:10 PM   #84
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Ben, do you really believe that these are good evidence that Apollonius was considered to be one of the Roman Gods?
Of course not. Nor do I believe that Jesus was considered one of the Roman gods.

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Is this evidence of a cult that believed that Apollonius was a God and worshiped him?
Lactantius writes in Divine Institutes 5.3 that Apollonius had been worshipped by some as a god (adoratum esse a quibusdam sicut deum), and that he was still worshipped in Ephesus under the name Heracles Alexicacus.

Philostratus, Life of Apollonius 7.20: The counts of the indictment, replied the other, are as varied as they are numerous; for your style of dress is assailed in them and your way of living in general, and your having been worshipped by certain people....

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This is written hundreds of years after the time of Apollonius. How is this better evidence then the writings of Kersey Graves? If I want to prove that Isis was a virgin then I need a primary source, but if you want to prove that Apollonius was a God, then any trash will do nicely.
I was unaware that there was a statute of limitations on divine honors. You asked for an ordinary man (not a king or the chancellor of a king) who was divinized; I gave you Apollonius. I do not recall you saying that the divinization had to have happened within a certain time limit. But, now that you are imposing one, what is your time limit, exactly? And why did you choose that particular time limit, whatever it is?

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Old 01-12-2009, 08:14 PM   #85
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After this Philostratus sets forth four counts of the indictment which he imagines it will be easy for his hero to defend himself from, and he admits that he has collected these out of a great many others. Of these the first was: What induced him to wear a different robe from everybody else? and the second: Why was it that men esteemed him to be a god? the third, How had he managed to predict the plague to the Ephesians? and last of all: In whose behoof had he gone to a certain field and cut up the Arcadian boy?
None of this stuff is in the Letters of Apollonius or the Life of Apollonius.
That is not true. In this (second) snippet Eusebius is summarizing Life of Apollonius 8.5:
The emperor [Domitian] next asked the question: Why is it that men call you a god?
You assailed my snippet from Eusebius on the grounds that it does not appear in the Life of Apollonius; does the knowledge that it does appear in the Life change your evaluation?

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Old 01-12-2009, 08:25 PM   #86
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More from the Life of Apollonius (8.31) on the cult of Apollonius:
And his shrine in Tyana is singled out and honored with royal officers; for neither have the emperors denied to him the honors of which they themselves were held worthy.
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Old 01-12-2009, 08:43 PM   #87
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No they are not evidence that some people thought Apollonius was a God.

They are forgeries.
For what it may be worth, Maria Dzielska appears to regard this particular letter as genuine.

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Old 01-12-2009, 10:11 PM   #88
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"A number of letters supposedly by Apollonius are now thought to be forgeries"
http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/...onius_of_Tyana

No they are not evidence that some people thought Apollonius was a God.
So you left off the rest of the quote because you disagree with it?

"A number of letters supposedly by Apollonius are now thought to be forgeries, but play an important role in how he was perceived throughout history."

A bit disingenuous.
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Old 01-12-2009, 10:21 PM   #89
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"A number of letters supposedly by Apollonius are now thought to be forgeries"
http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/...onius_of_Tyana

No they are not evidence that some people thought Apollonius was a God.
So you left off the rest of the quote because you disagree with it?

"A number of letters supposedly by Apollonius are now thought to be forgeries, but play an important role in how he was perceived throughout history."

A bit disingenuous.
The first part popped up on the results page for the Google search. I copied it from the results page before I clicked on and perused the article. It never occurred to me to consider expanding the quote.
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Old 01-12-2009, 10:37 PM   #90
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No they are not evidence that some people thought Apollonius was a God.

They are forgeries.
For what it may be worth, Maria Dzielska appears to regard this particular letter as genuine.

Ben.
Does Maria Dzielska say that Apollonius was worshiped as a God? does she agree that the rest of the letters were forgeries?

When considering the probability that Jesus was mythicized into a God, the more often and similar that other men were mythicized into Gods, then the more probable it is that Jesus was a man who was mythicized into a God.

If we had 10,000 cases where Gods were invented without any evidence of being derived from an ordinary man; and we had 10,000 cases where ordinary men were mythicized into Gods in circumstances that were similar to Jesus; then I would think that the chances were 50:50 that Jesus was an ordinary man who was mythicized into a God.

What do you think the probability is that Jesus was an ordinary man that was mythicized into a God?
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