Freethought & Rationalism Archive

slaveofChrist · 11-20-2003, 01:39 PM

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think the argument was that Christianity advocates research, testing everything, not having blind faith, having a logically consistent worldview that one contends and defends on an intellectual basis. This is one xian who does not advocate blind faith. The whole point was that Xianity is "rational". Rational does not mean correct. It simply means you aint be crazy or stupid for believing in it. So it should intellectually be respectable. This does not mean all facets are respectable though.

Thank you Vinnie, you seem to understand and restate my points very well, although not verbatim to my preference. Your exegesis of faith was also well done. If we were on Tweb, I'd give you some pearls, but we're not, so I hope my gratitude is enough. But anyway...

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As for slave's bizarre assertion that the original members gained death, well you seem to have refuted that nicely by Paul boasting of floggings. Hard to boast of floggings when others are being killed.

Would you like to elaborate on how that refutes the point?

Goliath · 11-20-2003, 02:12 PM

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Originally posted by Vinnie
There are positive aspects to it.

So what? It could be argued that there are positive aspects to smashing your right foot with a sledgehammer (for example, you wouldn't have to worry about walking around...it's easier to be wheeled around in a wheelchair!). Does that mean that you want to have your right foot smashed?

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At any rate, if I may ask a question of all the atheists for clarification purposes, why should any any theist repsect atheism?

I never said they should. As long as they respect my right to be an atheist (as I respect their right to be xians), then I don't care whether or not they respect atheism.

Sincerely,

Goliath

Mike(ATL) · 11-20-2003, 03:50 PM

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Originally posted by Mageth
Were God to be so obvious that no faith is required, our relationship with Him would be diminished.

Why?

It's hard to explain, but ask anyone who's surrendered his/her life to God. The process you go through to come to a place where you can trust God brings you closer to Him.

Weltall · 11-20-2003, 06:32 PM

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Originally posted by Mike(ATL)
It's hard to explain, but ask anyone who's surrendered his/her life to God. The process you go through to come to a place where you can trust God brings you closer to Him.

Yeah, God likes 'em emotionally vulnerable. They're easier to manipulate that way.

Vinnie · 11-20-2003, 07:19 PM

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Originally posted by Goliath
So what? It could be argued that there are positive aspects to smashing your right foot with a sledgehammer (for example, you wouldn't have to worry about walking around...it's easier to be wheeled around in a wheelchair!). Does that mean that you want to have your right foot smashed?

I never said they should. As long as they respect my right to be an atheist (as I respect their right to be xians), then I don't care whether or not they respect atheism.

Sincerely,

Goliath

What does it mean to respect your right to be an atheist? Not trying to have you deported to Antarctica? Not preaching to you.?

Let's play a little game:

If you respect a Christian's right to be a Christian then you have to respect:

A) Their right to believe you are going to the fires of hell
B) Their right to preach and witness to you and try and save you from said fires.

Does trying to convert you equate to "not respecting your atheism?"

I will say that Christianity is an evangelistic religion by default whose followers are sent on a Great Commission. To say you don't want Christians preaching to you is to NOT respect their right to be Christians.

All truth claims are exclusive in some form or as I like to say, 'Exclusivity is inevitable'. "Respect" deals with co-existing within these walls.

I'm not sure what your actualy position is though. Any clarification would be appreciated and the bang your foot analogy was not necessary and is little more than a red herring that I will not address.

Vinnie

Goliath · 11-21-2003, 08:59 AM

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Originally posted by Vinnie
What does it mean to respect your right to be an atheist?

To not do anything that might either interfere with my right to my atheism or interfere with separation of church and state.

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If you respect a Christian's right to be a Christian then you have to respect:

A) Their right to believe you are going to the fires of hell

Yes.

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B) Their right to preach and witness to you and try and save you from said fires.

No. Their right to harass me stops at my doorstep, my radio, and my computer.

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Does trying to convert you equate to "not respecting your atheism?"

Yes.

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To say you don't want Christians preaching to you is to NOT respect their right to be Christians.

If they can't keep their hate-filled bigotry to themselves, then that is their problem. Do not try to push their problems onto me. I tolerate them, and that is enough.

Sincerely,

Goliath

Mageth · 11-21-2003, 09:28 AM

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Originally posted by Mike(ATL)
It's hard to explain, but ask anyone who's surrendered his/her life to God. The process you go through to come to a place where you can trust God brings you closer to Him.

But the fact God is so unobvious as to require a great deal of faith to reach that "trusting" place prohibits the majority of people from getting closer to Him.

A little more presence and a little less mystery would seem to be a better way to get more people closer to him, if that's what he wants. And I don't see how being more obvious, and thus requiring less faith, would keep anyone from getting as close to him as they want.

(all argued, of course, assuming God exists).

Mike(ATL) · 11-22-2003, 09:13 AM

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Originally posted by Mageth
But the fact God is so unobvious as to require a great deal of faith to reach that "trusting" place prohibits the majority of people from getting closer to Him.

A little more presence and a little less mystery would seem to be a better way to get more people closer to him, if that's what he wants. And I don't see how being more obvious, and thus requiring less faith, would keep anyone from getting as close to him as they want.

(all argued, of course, assuming God exists).

With myself for example, my time apart from God strengthened my relationship with Him when I finally found Him. If God's goal was to get everyone to believe He existed it would certainly make more sense to write it up in the clouds for us all time time. God's goal though is to glorify Himself. One of the ways this is accomplished is for His people to not just believe in Him but worship Him. If God was really obvious and just bossing us around all the time why would we worship Him except maybe out of fear.

Kosh · 11-22-2003, 12:26 PM

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Originally posted by Mike(ATL)
God's goal though is to glorify Himself.

ie, a Megalomaniac.

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If God was really obvious and just bossing us around all the time why would we worship Him except maybe out of fear.

With Hell as the alternative, it's the same strategy.

Family Man · 11-22-2003, 05:05 PM

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Originally posted by Mike(ATL)
God's goal though is to glorify Himself. One of the ways this is accomplished is for His people to not just believe in Him but worship Him. If God was really obvious and just bossing us around all the time why would we worship Him except maybe out of fear.

Why would a perfect god:

1. need to glorify himself?
2. need to boss us all the time?
3. want worship?
4. utilize fear as his only means to acheive worship?

In short, Mike, this strikes me as a rather human description of God's requirements, and designed more for apologetic purposes than a sincere and detached description of the truth.

I mean, why do Christians insist on describing their god as a boorish, egotistical lout who, in real life, would probably end up on the wrong end of a war crimes trial?

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