Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Toto · 11-13-2010, 04:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

... Mani was executed, possibly by cricifixion in the Persian capital c.276/277 CE and his apostles were also persecuted and his writings presumeably destroyed with his body. ...

His writings were only destroyed some time after his death. As you say earlier, "These original writings and all copies thereof were targeted for destruction by the christian orthodoxy during the 4th and 5th centuries." There was no gap where rogue forgers would have had room to construct some baseless claim.

Transient · 11-13-2010, 04:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

... Mani was executed, possibly by cricifixion in the Persian capital c.276/277 CE and his apostles were also persecuted and his writings presumeably destroyed with his body. ...

His writings were only destroyed some time after his death. As you say earlier, "These original writings and all copies thereof were targeted for destruction by the christian orthodoxy during the 4th and 5th centuries." There was no gap where rogue forgers would have had room to construct some baseless claim.

But it is possible that that religious group gradually or otherwise changed their beliefs and the leaders then claimed that Mani himself believed those things. We don't have to look very far to see that kind of thing happening.
Most here are arguing that that is what happened with christianity, ie that there was some guy called Yahashua but he didn't say or do half the things reported by his followers.
If we are to believe the writings of followers then we might as well accept that Yahashua, Jesus or whatever is the Son of God, the Creator of the universe.

stephan huller · 11-13-2010, 05:15 PM

Here is a manuscript from the late third century of an Egyptian bishop referencing the Manichaean citation of Paul:

http://books.google.com/books?id=7ww...entury&f=false

This is universally acknowledged to be the earliest anti-Manichaean manuscript and usually dated to 290 CE:

http://books.google.com/books?id=e9w...290%22&f=false

stephan huller · 11-13-2010, 05:17 PM

Reference to a third century document referencing one of the first missions of the Manichaeans to Central Asia:

http://books.google.com/books?id=ikf...ury%22&f=false

stephan huller · 11-13-2010, 05:26 PM

Alexander of Lycopolis (in Upper Egypt) wrote an anti-Manichaean treatise c. 292 CE

stephan huller · 11-13-2010, 05:28 PM

The earliest of Mani's works the Shaburhagan makes explicit reference to Christian themes

http://books.google.com/books?id=e9w...est%20&f=false

Transient · 11-13-2010, 05:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

The earliest of Mani's works the Shaburhagan makes explicit reference to Christian themes

http://books.google.com/books?id=e9w...est%20&f=false

Thanks for the info, I appreciate the help - I will check then out.

mountainman · 11-13-2010, 09:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

Here is a manuscript from the late third century of an Egyptian bishop referencing the Manichaean citation of Paul:

http://books.google.com/books?id=7ww...entury&f=false

This is universally acknowledged to be the earliest anti-Manichaean manuscript and usually dated to 290 CE:

http://books.google.com/books?id=e9w...290%22&f=false

Thanks for the references stephan, but dont you understand that the evidence sought for here is a preNicaean Manichaean manuscript not a purported preNicaean anti-Manichaean manuscript.

As a skeptic I am entitled to place zero trust in the ability of the orthodox christian polemicists and heresiologists to fairly represent their opponents.

In this case the orthodox christian antimanichaean polemicist charges the manichaeans of requiring the menstrual blood of their female elect for the abominations of their madness. I am not really interested in these types of orthodox apologetic arguments. One can see straight through them.

mountainman · 11-13-2010, 09:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

Reference to a third century document referencing one of the first missions of the Manichaeans to Central Asia:

http://books.google.com/books?id=ikf...ury%22&f=false

Thanks again stephan but this reference is mainly describing a third century "Picture Book" from Mani, taken by one of his apostles Mar Ammo to Central Asia. Obviously copies of the "Picture Book" and Mani's painting style would have been carefully preserved, and they may disclose something about his hypothetical relationship with the Jesus of the New Testament, or they may not. From what I have seen of images of Mani down the Silk road to China, the representations of Mani looks almost exactly like the representations of Buddha.

mountainman · 11-13-2010, 10:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

Alexander of Lycopolis (in Upper Egypt) wrote an anti-Manichaean treatise c. 292 CE

Thanks again, but again this is not a Manichaean treatise, but an anti-Manichaean treatise, this time written by someone who was possibly not even a christian. I would be interested to see what this text discloses but I cannot find an English translation of it at the moment.

Quote:

Originally Posted by WIKI

The writer of a short treatise, in twenty-six chapters, against the Manichæans (PG., XVIII, 409-448). He must have flourished early in the fourth century, as he says in the second chapter of this work that he derived his knowledge of Manes' teaching apo ton gnorimon (from the man's friend). Despite its brevity and occasional obscurity, the work is valuable as a specimen of Greek analytical genius in the service of Christian theology, "a calm but vigorous protest of the trained scientific intellect against the vague dogmatism of the Oriental theosophies".

It has been questioned whether Alexander was a Christian when he wrote this work, or ever became one afterwards. Photius says (Contra Manichæos, i, 11) that he was Bishop of Lycopolis (in the Egyptian Thebaid), but Bardenhewer opines (Patrologie, 234) that he was a pagan and a platonist.

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11-13-2010, 05:15 PM	#333
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	Here is a manuscript from the late third century of an Egyptian bishop referencing the Manichaean citation of Paul: http://books.google.com/books?id=7ww...entury&f=false This is universally acknowledged to be the earliest anti-Manichaean manuscript and usually dated to 290 CE: http://books.google.com/books?id=e9w...290%22&f=false

11-13-2010, 05:17 PM	#334
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	Reference to a third century document referencing one of the first missions of the Manichaeans to Central Asia: http://books.google.com/books?id=ikf...ury%22&f=false

11-13-2010, 05:26 PM	#335
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	Alexander of Lycopolis (in Upper Egypt) wrote an anti-Manichaean treatise c. 292 CE

11-13-2010, 05:28 PM	#336
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	The earliest of Mani's works the Shaburhagan makes explicit reference to Christian themes http://books.google.com/books?id=e9w...est%20&f=false

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