andrewcriddle

I'm not sure what you mean by external evidence but I'll assume you mean evidence from non-Christian sources.

The main evidence would be from Jewish sources. We have various references in early Jewish sources to heretics or minim. A benediction against the minim became part of the synagogue prayers probably in the early 2nd century CE.

These minim were probably mainly Jewish Christians (see the account in Tosefta Hullin chapter 2 where the minim are apparently followers of Jesus ben Pantira.)

This seems to indicate that enough people of Jewish background were following Jesus to be a source of concern for 2nd century rabbis.

As to their decline and disappearance, there were probably never very large amounts of Jewish Christians in absolute terms. (Until the 2nd century there were less than 100,000 Christians in total.) Hostility from both mainstream Jews and mainstream Christians would eventually lead to their disappearance as a distinct group, but we lack the evidence to describe events in detail.

Andrew Criddle

Johnny Skeptic

Andrew, the evidence that you cited cannot reliably be used to confirm the "many thousands" of Christians claimed in the book of Acts.

Heretics do not indicate numbers. Regarding "This seems to indicate that enough people of Jewish background were following Jesus to be a source of concern for 2nd century rabbis," I disagree. Logically, the rate of increase in numbers is often just as important as the actual increase in numbers. For instance, if on January 7, 40 A.D., there were 10 Christian Jews in Jerusalem, and if on January 17, 40 A.D., there were 50 Christian Jews in Jerusalem, that would have been a 500% increase in just 10 days, or more than enough of an increase to upset the Jewish rabbis.
At any rate, there is no external evidence that Jesus is mentioned in Daniel chapter 12.

andrewcriddle

Johnny

I've tried to give evidence (maybe not conclusive evidence) that there was at one time a substantial group of Jewish-Christian believers.

What evidence do you have that there weren't ?

(The eventual disappearance of such groups is not IMO good evidence that they never existed.)

Andrew Criddle

Johnny Skeptic

Regarding "What evidence do you have that there weren't?," I never said that there weren't. The book of Acts said that there were. All that I am asking for is reasonable proof that there were.

Regarding "The eventual disappearance of such groups is not IMO good evidence that they never existed," that is true, but it is suspicious that there is no signicant presence of Christian Jews in the 2nd century even though Trajan killed 500,000 Jews early in the 2nd century. I know that the majority of those 500,000 Jews were not Christians, but since the Romans tolerated Judaism to a great extent as long as they didn't cause trouble, why wouldn't they have tolerated Christian Jews as well?

andrewcriddle

I'm sorry I genuinely don't understand this argument.

Why does the brutal suppression by Trajan of a violent revolt by Diaspora Jews have any bearing on how many Jewish-Christian believers there were at the time ?

Andrew Criddle

Edited to Add

If you mean that Jewish-Christians would not have faced persecution for being Christians from the pagan Roman state then you're probably right, but I've not claimed otherwise. The hostility they faced would have been from mainstream Christians and mainstream Jews not from the pagan Roman government.

Johnny Skeptic

Yes, Andrew, that is what I mean. My point is that there is no logical correlation that can be made between the persecution of Christian Jews and number of Christian Jews. A small group of people can be hated and persecuted just as easily as a large group of people.

Getting back to our main topic, I stand by my previous argument that there is no indication that Jesus fulfilled Daniel 12.

andrewcriddle

Do you mean that EVEN IF Jesus was vindicated resurrected and glorified by God this would still not fulfil Daniel 12 2-3 ?

If so do you also deny any link between Daniel 12 and Isaiah 53 ?

(I've mentioned earlier my belief that light the reading of the Septuagint and the Dead Sea Scrolls is original although not in the MT.)

Andrew Criddle

Johnny Skeptic

Well of course not. If you reasonbly prove that Jesus rose from the dead, I will admit that he fulfilled Daniel chapter 12.

andrewcriddle

So you agree that if the early disciples honestly and wholeheartedly believed that Jesus had risen from the dead, then they would naturally come to believe that this was a fulfillment of Daniel chapter 12 ?

Andrew Criddle

Johnny Skeptic

When I asked you to start a thread on a fulfilled prophecy, I didn't mean to start a thread on what people believed. Still, how do we know what the disciples believed? What external records are there regarding the post-Resurrection claims and activities of the disciples?