Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Johann_Kaspar · 04-27-2007, 01:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Emotions and feelings are part of the human condition. They have helped the human species survive to kill each other for generations.

Fixed.

Clivedurdle · 04-27-2007, 01:33 AM

Quote:

And the Lord God said "It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a companion for him."

Genesis 2 18.

Is the catholic church a huge institutionalised replacement of relationships between humans?

Is all its ritual and spirituality and depth an inauthentic tinkling compared with us getting on with each other?

Johann_Kaspar · 04-27-2007, 01:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

The discussion about overdetermination was just an effort to get around the anal retentive free choice rampant capitalist shill mentality. (Parse that!) You are less responsible than you think. So much of what you think is you is pastiche. You are a warping mirror. Heuristic machines are by their nature complex, but they are the sum of what they "absorb" and the arrangement of it. What's left is mainly dogma. What can you expect: you've been through seal-training until at least eighteen. Catch the ball, Bruno! Now right up on your tail. Oh boy, them fish taste good.

Einstein wrote something along this line: you are free to want something, but are you free to want what you want?

spin · 04-27-2007, 02:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johann_Kaspar

Why? Does he have some kind of illness?

Sadly, yes. It's incurable. Doctors call it "life" or somesuch. It has many complications. I wouldn't wish it on anyone who didn't already have it. But let's put on a brave face.

Code:

No man is an island
entire of itself
every man is a piece of the continent
a part of the main.

If a clod be swept away by the sea
Europe is the less,
as well as if a promontory were
as well as if a manor of thy friend's
or of thine own were.

- Donne

spin

Apikorus · 04-27-2007, 03:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

Be good and compassionate.

Hear, hear! As Steve Martin's grandmother used to sing to him,

Be courteous, kind and forgiving,
Be gentle and peaceful each day,
Be warm and human and grateful,
And have a good thing to say.

Be thoughtful and trustful and childlike,
Be witty and happy and wise,
Be honest and love all your neighbors,
Be obsequious, purple, and clairvoyant.

Be pompous, obese, and eat cactus,
Be dull, and boring, and omnipresent,
Criticize things you don't know about,
Be oblong and have your knees removed.

Be tasteless, rude, and offensive,
Live in a swamp and be three dimensional,
Put a live chicken in your underwear,
Get all excited and go to a yawning festival.

RED DAVE · 04-27-2007, 03:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Apikorus

Hear, hear! As Steve Martin's grandmother used to sing to him ...

Martin, of course, and this is very much on point, is an acute critic of the heartwarming and collective aspect of religion:

Quote:

If I had one wish that I could wish this holiday season, it would be that all the children to join hands and sing together in the spirit of harmony and peace. If I had two wishes I could make this holiday season, the first would be for all the children of the world to join hands and sing in the spirit of harmony and peace. And the second would be for 30 million dollars a month to be given to me, tax-free in a Swiss bank account. You know, if I had three wishes I could make this holiday season, the first, of course, would be for all the children of the world to get together and sing, the second would be for the 30 million dollars every month to me, and the third would be for encompassing power over every living being in the entire universe. And if I had four wishes that I could make this holiday season, the first would be the crap about the kids definitely, the second would be for the 30 million, the third would be for all the power, and the fourth would be to set aside one month each year to have an extended 31-day orgasm, to be brought out slowly by Rosanna Arquette and that model Paulina-somebody, I can't think of her name. Of course my lovely wife can come too and she's behind me one hundred percent here, I guarantee it. Wait a minute, maybe the sex thing should be the first wish, so if I made that the first wish, because it could all go boom tomorrow, then what do you got, y'know? No, no, the kids, the kids singing would be great, that would be nice. But wait a minute, who am I kidding? They're not going to be able to get all those kids together. I mean, the logistics of the thing is impossible, more trouble than it's worth! So -- we reorganize! Here we go. First, the sex thing. We go with that. Second, the money. No, we got with the power second, then the money. And then the kids. Oh wait, oh jeez, I forgot about revenge against my enemies! Okay, I need revenge against all my enemies, they should die like pigs in hell! That would be my fourth wish. And, of course, my fifth wish would be for all the children of the world to join hands and sing together in the spirit of harmony and peace. Thank you everybody and Merry Christmas.

RED DAVE

Steven Avery · 04-27-2007, 04:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vivo

So this guy was an atheist for like ten years, wrote all this scholarly stuff on why religion is bs, and then viola he reconverts?

And Toto indicated why this is not accurate.

One point should be mentioned. Peter has always had a searching attitude in discussions, even of what would be regarded dismissively here as Habermas or fundie viewpoints.

I share the respectful view of Peter on this from going back some years to our discussion of whether Paul was referencing the Gospel of Luke in 1 Timothy 5:18 (and also authorship discussions as well, like the Pastorals). Peter would offer lots of good thoughts and analysis and never dogmatically rejected the idea, even on a forum where the general view would be more negative than IIDB. He was really trying to understand whether it was a sensible idea and all the grammatical and conceptual and probability aspects and the alternate explanations. Rare to see on forums, including IIDB, although there was one decent thread on the topic here, as I remember.

So I never have viewed Peter as doctrinaire or dogmatic and always as searching for consistency and understanding. And truth.

The ecatena database has always been a prime resource for Bible studies of the early church writers. Hopefully it will even have expansion in the days ahead. And of course Early Christian Writings and Early Jewish Writings generally eschew bias in presentation and are wonderful resources as well.

Anyway, I wish Peter the best in the days ahead. And I fully understand what he shares about trying to discuss in what he would find the most time-productive and respectful and edifying venues.

Shalom,
Steven Avery

Steve Schlicht · 04-27-2007, 04:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter Kirby

I have started to make some posts there. I urge you all who are interested to check it out and interact with me there. :grin:

I'll make it a point to check it out.

Hey, and if you get the time between all these other web arenas please think about stopping by one I organize:

The Great Southern Humanist Society

It is more event discussion driven, however, it provides for general interest topics to be discussed.

Steve

Steve Schlicht · 04-27-2007, 04:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

I don't recall Peter writing stuff on why religion is bs. He wrote about his deconversion based on logical arguments against the existence of God. He seems to have decided to reconvert (revert?) for more complex reasons.

Emotions and feelings are part of the human condition. They have helped the human species survive for generations.

It's not like Peter has drunk some Kool-Aid and now thinks that Gary Habermas was right all along.

Really?

I find that misleading, Toto.

Peter Kirby has a long history of honest biblical refutation.

Then, the first post on the uberchristian link that is provided has no reference to any "complex reasons" for his return to his family tradition and is a direct appeal to emotion and the comfort of tribal bond.

Again, this is an apparent solace seeking effort and it is no coincidence that he merely returned to the religious concepts of his youthful indoctrination and not Islam or Wicca or some nature paganism (HeathenDawn, anyone).

He then seems to refute rational debate by plainly stating that debate is not going to be considered and posits that discussions at IIDB are solely filled with acrimony...as if that is another argument against the disbelief in God(s)ess(es).

Characterize religion as poetic and demonize the enemy of atheism as acrimonious is a standard methodology.

All these are classic indicators that Peter Kirby is not using "logical arguments" at all and is relying on unsupported emotional claims, in my view.

Steve

spin · 04-27-2007, 04:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Apikorus

Hear, hear! As Steve Martin's grandmother used to sing to him,...

You're just pulling my leg. I bet she didn't use to sing that at all. That's just deserving of this.

spin

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