storytime

Romans 9:11-13 "For the children, being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election[predistination] might stand, not of works but of him that calleth. It was said unto her, The elder[Esau] shall serve the younger[Jacob]. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated."

See also: Malachi 1:1-5 Ezek.11:14-20

For those who believe and depend on their faith that God accepts them as his children, this pretty much invalidates that claim. For if Esau could not be "the seed" and was not predistined, and Paul said who are you to question God and his predistined plan, that not only leaves the Christians[Gentiles] out of the picture, but the rest of the world as well.

In Romans 9:11-13 and verses following, Paul shows to whom the promise was delivered. To Jacob-Israel. Paul also states that not all in Israel are of Israel. (Not all in Jacob were the seed of promise)

The promise could not be delivered to any but the predistined seed, that one seed of Isaac called Jacob. So, no matter how much faith and attempt to please God, it's a useless endeavor if you are not a son of Jacob. Else, the brother of Jacob, Esau, would have been included in the promise. But alas, he wasn't. God hated him forever.

And, from the looks of it, even conversion to Judaism would not benefit anyone.

I hope the Jews have figured out who's who in Israel. This stuff could get nasty when it comes to identity as the chosen people.

Steve would you now like to now explain your faith?

sschlichter

Israel's Rejection Considered

(Rom 9:1) I am telling the truth in Christ (I am not lying!), for my conscience assures me in the Holy Spirit -
(Rom 9:2) I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart.
(Rom 9:3) For I could wish that I myself were accursed - cut off from Christ - for the sake of my people, my fellow countrymen,
(Rom 9:4) who are Israelites. To them belong the adoption as sons, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the temple worship, and the promises.
(Rom 9:5) To them belong the patriarchs, and from them, by human descent, came the Christ, who is God over all, blessed forever! Amen.
(Rom 9:6) It is not as though the word of God had failed. For not all those who are descended from Israel are truly Israel,
(Rom 9:7) nor are all the children Abraham's true descendants; rather " through Isaac will your descendants be counted."
(Rom 9:8) This means it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God; rather, the children of promise are counted as descendants.
(Rom 9:9) For this is what the promise declared: " About a year from now I will return and Sarah will have a son."
(Rom 9:10) Not only that, but when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our ancestor Isaac -
(Rom 9:11) even before they were born or had done anything good or bad (so that God's purpose in election would stand, not by works but by his calling) -
(Rom 9:12) it was said to her, " The older will serve the younger,"
(Rom 9:13) just as it is written: " Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."

The point is this. The true descendants of Isaac are inheritors of the faith of Abraham. Paul is answering the question of why Israel rejected Christ. Israel, the firstborn is set aside for now and God is blessing those Jews and Gentiles that beleive. God is blessing not the children of the flesh (Rom 9:8) but of the promise. Who are the children of promise. Those who beleive, i.e. those predestined by God, no longer selected by pedigree or birthright. (Col 3:11) Here there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave or free, but Christ is all and in all.

Paul did not make this up. Jesus said the same thing when the Jews confronted him with their birthright as Jews.

(John 8:33) "We are descendants of Abraham," they replied, "and have never been anyone's slaves! How can you say, 'You will become free'?"
(John 8:34) Jesus answered them, "I tell you the solemn truth, everyone who practices sin is a slave of sin.
(John 8:35) The slave does not remain in the family forever, but the son remains forever.
(John 8:36) So if the son sets you free, you will be really free.
(John 8:37) I know that you are Abraham's descendants. But you want to kill me, because my teaching makes no progress among you.
(John 8:38) I am telling you the things I have seen while with the Father; as for you, practice the things you have heard from the Father!"
(John 8:39) They answered him, "Abraham is our father!" Jesus replied, "If you are Abraham's children, you would be doing the deeds of Abraham.

Wait! Aren't they doing the deeds of Abraham? No, apparently not. The deeds of Abraham are based on faith (Gen 15:6). Jesus found that they were not doing as Abraham did. If they were they would have recognized the instrument o their redemption. Abraham was justfiied by faith and they were desiring to be justifed by outward obedience to the law and birthright. Jesus looked for faith and found it in Gentiles as well (Luke 7:1-10).

~Steve

storytime

Yes, the true descendants of Isaac are the one seed called Jacob, (not Esau, Edomites); not many seeds[children] but one name - Jacob Israel. And the Christians[Gentiles] are imposing themselves as unwelcome guests, so to speak.

Jesus didn't create a new covenant for Gentiles. He didn't begin a new religion called Christianity. Jesus was a Jewish rabbi and priest. His way, truth and life was Judaism.

As traditions might have gone, the firstborn of Abraham was Ishmael. Ishmael received the blessing first. Isaac could not have received anything as he was not yet born. But God told Abraham that he would make his covenant with Isaac and his seed. Now the seed of Isaac for whom the promise was predistined was Jacob called Israel. God fulfilled his part of the deal and the covenant was established with Jacob and his sons called Israelites, the one seed. And if any other people want to be blessed in the house of Abraham they must have the same faith as Abraham and believe God and then they will be required to do the same as the Jews in circumcision and observsing law of Moses.


Jesus was rejected due to only one God who sent no savior, mediator, to act in his place. The Jews already had the word of God in commandments given to them. God had already spoken through his laws to his people. But here came Jesus preaching he was equal to God and God in the flesh. I'm surprised that he lasted as long as he did.
But then, Jesus was a sneaky one who went about secretly and deceived multitudes with parables. In fact, Jesus did the same thing that the serpent did in the garden of Eden. Both the serpent and Jesus told people "ye shall not surely die".


He said he did just that. Paul said his message was "according to my gospel".







The deeds of circumcision and law keeping in Israeli's are also based on faith.


Jesus may have observed faith in Gentiles but that still did not make Gentiles acceptable according to the covenant and law given to the Jews. Any person desiring to convert to the faith of Jesus would have been required to do the same as Jesus - be circumcised and obey the laws of Moses.

As to birthright - Esau lost his to Jacob. Never to be restablished as "a people" of God. Remember, Esau was the father of Edomites and Edomites were not predistined to receive the promise. This should tell you something, like, you're not included in the Hebrew God's scheme of things. Unless, of course, you're really serious about your faith as you boast, and are willing to do as Abraham and get circumcised and then agree to keep the laws of Moses, just as the Jews.

sschlichter

You suggested that Jesus way was to follow Jewish custom and then stated Jesus claimed to be God and was rejected because they did not beleive he was a mediator. Which is it?

storytime

Do you think Jesus way was to follow Gentilism?

Jesus was a Jewish lunatic, for lack of a better explanation of his evident self interest in becoming a dead corpse. :Cheeky: Look at the Pharisee side of things. They believed they were correct in how they taught law in guiding the Jewish people. All was going pretty well until a guy named Jesus came along and began accusing the Pharisees of being sons of the devil. Jesus evidently had a personal sort-of psychotic problem, but there were no psychiatrist in those days. No one to advise him that if he continued stirring up trouble and declaring Jews would be cast into a lake of fire burning with brimstone where the fire is not quenched and the worm dieth not, he'd probably get arrested for disturbing the peace or worse, blasphemy. And yes, disturbing the peace was one of the 613 civil ordances the Jews had compiled because there were a lot more Jewish lunatics than Jesus running around. :rolling:

Paul talks about Jesus being a mediator. Did the Pharisees agree? (Paul was another Jewish lunatic) Now, I know the Jewish people of today might not like hearing about their ancestors being lunatics but, I think it's best to get their egocentric "fathers(?)" out in the open, expose their ancestors mental illnesses and drug abuse problems and face the reality of those past generations. Don't you?

OT God says there is no savior, mediator, or Lord beside Him. God stands alone. God is invisible. But God was never a man.

Oh, before I forget it, Peter was another Jewish lunatic. Jesus even called him Satan. Peter went up on a roof top to smoke some dope and had a vision about all sorts of animals being let down from heaven in a sheet. From this experience Peter concluded that salvation had come to the Gentiles. But Peter failed to explain why Gentiles would have needed salvation anyhow. What did salvation mean? Were the lunatic Jews in the habit of killing Gentiles just because they were Gentiles? Did salvation mean that Gentiles received a pardon from the Jews?

Could it be that Peter wanted to cover his butt because he had been playing around in the manner of Gentiles? Peter told Cornelius that it was unlawful for a Jew to speak to a Gentile. Does Peter sound like a drug pusher to you? :devil1: He was pretty complimentary to the Gentile Cornelius. And Cornelius was paying off the Jews in some form. Maybe the Jews were doing a shake-down on all the Gentiles in their territory? Remember, Paul exposed Peter face to face in front of James and the other apostles because as the script says, Peter was at fault.

This story has more twist and turns than you might imagine. :rolling:

Question: Where in the OT does God resurrect dead men? Or speak of an afterlife? The only thing I can find is that God commanded the people of Israel to obey their laws so that they could prolong their days upon the earth.

But lunatic Jesus promised a paradise to at least one theif on the cross. Promised that not one hair on the head of disciples would be harmed. Promised them he'd grant any wish they asked for. Jesus preached about the blind leading the blind, however, he didn't mention lunatics following lunatics.

sschlichter

try reading it.

Isaiah 9
1 Nevertheless, there will be no more gloom for those who were in distress. In the past he humbled the land of Zebulun and the land of Naphtali, but in the future he will honor Galilee of the Gentiles, by the way of the sea, along the Jordan-
2 The people walking in darkness
have seen a great light;
on those living in the land of the shadow of death [a]
a light has dawned.

3 You have enlarged the nation
and increased their joy;
they rejoice before you
as people rejoice at the harvest,
as men rejoice
when dividing the plunder.

4 For as in the day of Midian's defeat,
you have shattered
the yoke that burdens them,
the bar across their shoulders,
the rod of their oppressor.

5 Every warrior's boot used in battle
and every garment rolled in blood
will be destined for burning,
will be fuel for the fire.

6 [B]For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given,
and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

7 Of the increase of his government and peace
there will be no end.
He will reign on David's throne
and over his kingdom,
establishing and upholding it
with justice and righteousness
from that time on and forever.
The zeal of the LORD Almighty
will accomplish this.


This prophecy very clearly says that God will one day bring a light to the gentiles that walk in darkness. The light comes in the form of a child, the child will be a descendant of David and his throne will be everlasting. he will be known as Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. This is his name from Isa 7, Emmanuel, God with us.



David knows God will not abandon him to death

(Psa 16:10) You will not abandon me to Sheol;
you will not allow your faithful follower to see the Pit.

Job knew the instrument of his redemption

(Job 19:25) As for me, I know that my Redeemer lives,
and that as the last he will stand upon the earth.

Messiah is buried in a rich mans tomb but will see a long life once restitution is made. Why was he buried, because he was dead.

(Isa 53:9) They intended to bury him with criminals,
but he ended up in a rich man's tomb, because he had committed no violent deeds,
nor had he spoken deceitfully.
(Isa 53:10) Though the LORD desired to crush him and make him ill,
once restitution is made,
he will see descendants and enjoy long life, and the LORD's purpose will be accomplished through him.

Paul mentioned that you might feel this way:

(1 Cor 1:18) For the message about the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
(1 Cor 1:19) For it is written, " I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and I will thwart the cleverness of the intelligent."
(1 Cor 1:20) Where is the wise man? Where is the expert in the Mosaic law? Where is the debater of this age? Has God not made the wisdom of the world foolish?
(1 Cor 1:21) For since in the wisdom of God the world by its wisdom did not know God, God was pleased to save those who believe by the foolishness of preaching.
(1 Cor 1:22) For Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks ask for wisdom,
(1 Cor 1:23) but we preach about a crucified Christ, a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles.

~Steve

storytime

Isaiah 9
1 Nevertheless, there will be no more gloom for those who were in distress. In the past he humbled the land of Zebulun and the land of Naphtali, but

Quote:

in the future he will honor Galilee of the Gentiles

But that doesn't say He would honor Gentiles. But it does presuppose God honoring the sons of Jacob, the one seed.


, Compare the psalm "as I walk through the shadow of death I will fear no evil, for thou art with me".

You've presented Jacob as the son, and a poetic attestment to the house of Israel.


3 You have enlarged the nation
and increased their joy;
they rejoice before you
as people rejoice at the harvest,
as men rejoice
when dividing the plunder.

4 For as in the day of Midian's defeat,
you have shattered
the yoke that burdens them,
the bar across their shoulders,
the rod of their oppressor.

5 Every warrior's boot used in battle
and every garment rolled in blood
will be destined for burning,
will be fuel for the fire.

6 [B][QUOTE]

Quote:

For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Reflection on Jacob-Israel, not Jesus.



Same theme. Jacob reigns on Davids throne.


[QUOTE]This prophecy very clearly says that God will one day bring a light to the gentiles that walk in darkness. The light comes in the form of a child, the child will be a descendant of David and his throne will be everlasting. he will be known as Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. This is his name from Isa 7, Emmanuel, God with us.

No, this shows the prophet's encouragement to Jacob living among the Gentiles.


David speaks of himself. David was considered holy and anointed. Thus, "thou will not leave my soul in hell, neither will thou allow thy holy one to see corruption." His name as King would remain throughout all the generations of Israel.

Job also said that he knew that in his flesh he would see God, with his own eyes, and not anothers. But, Job was speaking of his relatives in the future, else he also was a lunatic.

What, did you overlook this part? Joseph and Nickodemus begged the body of Jesus from Pilate. They buried Jesus close to the place where he was crucified, outside Jerusalem. They did this because the Sabbath was near. Nickodemus dressed Jesus in burial with spices. And they kept it a big secret. This would explain why the tomb was empty.

Two accounts are made of where he was laid to rest. Take your pick and explain one away by the other.

Pauls gospel doesn't quite meet the standards of Gods word in OT. Who you going to believe, Pauls gospel or Gods word in OT?

But I'm not perishing.

Intelligence is winning against the pious fraud of a created God.

sschlichter

It seems a little insecure to need to keep reminding me of your pending victory over God.

I stopped listening when you suggested that Jacob is the one who will be born, God with us, and reigning eternally on his descendant David's throne. Also Jacob was going to be buried in a rich man's tomb yet see long life. Also, jacob was going to be peirced for our iniquities, bruised for our sins.
By Jacobs stripes we are going to be healed.

If Jacob is the suffering servant and God does not deal with gentiles, then who is our? Whose sin is Jacob healing thru his suffering.

Jacob was rejected by his people, wait, Jacob is his people.

storytime, your name is your game. You tell fantastic stories. You can ignore the central themes of the Old Testament better than anyone. The claim of lunacy every time you do not like the only remaining interpretation gets quite old. Now you have added Job to your list of lunatics.

If Jesus, Paul, Peter, and Job are lunatics, then who knows who is perishing.

~Steve

storytime

But I'm not insecure in my victory over a myth, it is you who remains in lock-step with lunatics. :Cheeky:

That's so very sad. Though, you should listen to me as I know what I'm talking about on this subject, otherwise I'd not be here debating these points with you. Infidels forum can be a very intimidating place at times. But, if you hang in there, I'll try to help you get through this part and who knows, you just might learn something instead of being a stubborn knowitall who will not listen to reason. :banghead:

Metaphorically speaking, Jacob went through some hair-raising experiences as the prophets continually beat him with stones.

Yep, that's about the size of it. Jacob was a favored son so he received many stripes and was healed.


Yes, Jacob is the suffering servant and God does not deal with Gentiles as a people of his own. So, what can you do to be called a son of Jacob, son of God? And also be considered as "the one seed"? The rules of protocol is established in Zion, "ye must be circumcised and observe the laws of Moses". Then you can rightly claim yourself as in the covenant of Abraham's House, and you will be transformed from a Gentile into a Jew. You would also be required to turn from your idol worship in Jesus as God.


Jacob had twelve sons, he and his sons were renamed Israel. Remember the wrestling match between Jacob and God? Jacob was the victor but came away with a limp, so to speak.


Well, it's pretty obvious that "storytime" is my way of describing these biblical superstitous beliefs. I do like the way the Hebrew scribes boosted their myths into a full blown religious body, but there is still that monstrous god of their making and the prophets who were lunatics, hatefilled men who wanted to kill off all the non Israelites in the middle east. It's a real dominionist trilogy.

What about psychopathetics with a serious social disorder?

I think you should study the situation of Esau. Even though he sought with tears the acceptance of God, he did not receive it [the promise]. Esau was the father of Edomites, traitor to the predestined plan in Jacob/Israel - the elder shall serve the younger in order that Gods elect not be impaired. Esau was the hated, Edomites were not a people of of the Hebrew God.


Have you read the story and discovered the many other nations who were not a people of God?

Can you not now understand why this story excludes non Jewish people?

sschlichter

thanks for your offer of helping me get thru it, but we are not getting thru anything. You avoid any questions I have, ignore everything that does not jive with your postion, ignore any meaning of language, and then chalk someone off as a lunatic if they bolster Pauls and Jesus' interpretation of the OT. I am glad that you are an expert, congrats but I will stick with the lunatics.

~Steve