Roger Pearse

The first 9 pages of Gerasimus have come across, and look very good. The translator says that the Arabic is very hard going, and looks as if it was probably translated from Greek.

Roger Pearse

A news update: nothing more on Gerasimus. But my translator for the Eusebius project has just declared that he is bunking off for the summer, so perhaps the good weather has something to do with this.

I have now discovered the existence of a field of study related to all these collections, that of Greek and Arabic gnomologia.

I've just obtained from the library Dimitri Gutas, Greek wisdom literature in Arabic translation: a study of the Graeco-Arabic gnomologia, American Oriental Society, 1975. This is an edition of 4 collections of sayings by Plato, Aristotle, etc, with a long introduction and list of the *non-Christian* sayings. He reckons that a collection of sayings existed in Byzantium, and that the Sacra Parallela of John Damascene consists of a collection of Christian sayings, and that the two merge.

I wrote to Gutas before this arrived, asking for his thoughts. But no reply received, unfortunately.

Roger Pearse

A vast collection of sayings - a florilegium - exists in Greek under the name of Maximus the Confessor, the Loci Communes.

GakuseiDon

Roger, just a note here to say how much I appreciate the updates you are giving here on this. I'm sure a lot of us feel the same. Very interesting! :notworthy: (You're "possible theory of origins" post above esp so)

Roger Pearse

Many thanks. I know it's very recondite, but it's worth pursuing down to the bitter end for that very reason.

andrewcriddle

I've hesitated about posting this because it may be wild speculation but here goes.

One of the things that remains puzzling is the identity of Bandaritus the "Lord of Talismans" or "God of Talismans".

It may possibly be worth noting that "Lord of the Talismans" Ṣᾱḥib al-tilasmᾱt is an Arabic title of Apollonius of Tyana.

Apollonius in Arabic is known as Balinus and variants thereof, however I have been unable to find a plausible route from Balinus to Bandaritus.

I still feel that the "Lord of Talismans" coincidence may be significant.

Andrew Criddle

Roger Pearse

Thank you Andrew for that thought -- the Lord of Talisman's idea has troubled me. What is your source for the statement that this was a title of Apollonius of Tyana?

I've been reading Gutas. It's full of crucial info. Apparently nearly all the Alexander-related gnomologia were translated from Greek into Arabic.

Also I have just seen today that the Corpus Parisinum manuscript of gnomologia, pagan and Christian, has just been published under that title with an English translation. Gutas has contributed a preface.

I've also seen this set of abstracts online:

http://www.umich.edu/~aos/2004/Abstracts2004.pdf

107. Kevin van Bladel, Yale University. The Wise Sayings of the Arabic Hermes

A long-standing problem in Græco-Arabic studies has been to determine the relationship of the Arabic texts attributed to Hermes to the extant ancient Greek Hermetica. Among the Arabic Hermetica, one hundred and forty-six h.ikam (wise sayings) attributed to the ancient Greek figure Hermes Trismegistus survive in various medieval Arabic collections of gnomologia. These range from pithy and profound sentences of a few words to lively moralizing exhortations a half page in length. Only one of these, occurring alone in a unique collection, has ever been shown to be a translation from Greek, discovered by Franz Rosenthal and published in 1958 (Orientalia 27, 29–54 and 150–83). The provenance of the remaining h.ikam of Hermes, apparently transmitted together as a group, has remained a mystery. Analysis of these sayings reveals not a Greek prototype but rather an Iranian background. Both in form and in content the Arabic sayings of Hermes resemble most closely wise sayings extant in Zoroastrian Middle Persian (andarz literature). The discovery of the Middle Persian antecedent of one of the Arabic sayings of Hermes, of which the latter is a word-for-word translation, adds further proof that the bulk of the Arabic sayings of Hermes represents otherwise lost Sasanian literature. A presentation of example sayings in Arabic, with Greek and Middle Persian sayings for comparison, will illustrate this.

Both astrological and alchemical Hermetica in Arabic have proven in some cases to have Sasanian origins. Now in another genre of texts we find again that the Iranian heritage in Arabic literature demands further exploration and that Greek names do not necessarily point to immediate Greek origins.

Great news: there is *Ethiopic* gnomologia also. <wince>

http://www.islamicmanuscripts.info/r...nship-MME6.pdf

andrewcriddle

Dzielska Apollonius of Tyana p 112 Dzielska is citing Weisser Das Buch Uber das Geheimnis der Schopfung von Pseudo-Apollonios von Tyana pps 23 and 36. (My academic German is weak but Weisser is pretty clearly saying what Dzielska claims. )

Weisser seems to be basing this on Arabic writers such as Al-Ya'qubi.

There are Internet sites making this claim (google for "lord of the talismans") but I think we have learned not to regard them as automatically reliable.

Andrew Criddle

See particularly on the Internet http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollonius_of_Tyana

Roger Pearse

Thank you very much for these details!

It's fairly clear how we get Balinus from Apollonius, by omitting all the vowels and the usual P->B change. Not so easy to see Bandaritus (it's not 'Pindar' is it?)

andrewcriddle

Hi Roger

After trying hard I still can't see any plausible way to get Bandaritus from Apollonius. Bandaritus from Pindar would be easy but Pindar doesn't seem at all likely as a Lord of Talismans (unlike Apollonius).

Andrew Criddle