Freethought & Rationalism Archive

bacht · 10-08-2009, 10:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minimalist

Of course there were people living in the area. They were Canaanites just like all the other towns in the region. The only thing that tells us that they were "Jews" is the OT which, in Davies' view, was written later on for a purely political purpose. The whole idea of the OT is that the "Jews" were special. They weren't.

I would agree that the Israelites weren't special before Josiah and the Deuteronomic writers. At that point they instituted a puritanical monotheism that may have been unique up to that time.

spamandham · 10-08-2009, 11:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bacht

I would agree that the Israelites weren't special before Josiah and the Deuteronomic writers. At that point they instituted a puritanical monotheism that may have been unique up to that time.

There is strong evidence of Jewish polytheism throughout the Old Testament with a dozen or more gods eventually rolled up into one big monotheistic gob-o-goo named YHWH.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_God_in_Judaism

This suggests monotheism didn't come to triumph until after the initial stories were penned, and it may have been the penning itself that eventually led to monotheism.

Minimalist · 10-08-2009, 11:12 AM

Well, that is the argument that is going on, bacht. Increasingly the maximalists are being shut out of the debate which is between the centrists (Finkelstein, Dever, and now Amihai Mazar) and the minimalists (Davies', Lemche, Thompson.)

There is no non-biblical reference to Josiah, either. So, we shall see.

andrewcriddle · 10-08-2009, 12:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minimalist

Now, Davies' point is that we have no evidence OTHER THAN the OT that the people who were exiled were recognizable as "Jews" as we now understand the term. A handful of inscriptions and a boatload of cultic figurines indicate that they were at best henotheistic, meaning Yahweh was the local king of the gods much as Zeus ruled over Olympus. They may not have been even that far along the evolutionary scale.
Again, Dever goes over all this in his book.

Did you mean "Again Davies goes over all this in his book" ?

Andrew Criddle

Minimalist · 10-08-2009, 10:58 PM

No, sorry, different D. Dever's book "Did God Have A Wife" outlines the archaeological evidence for polytheism in Judah.

I know I've mentioned it somewhere recently....can't recall if it was this thread or some other.

Things start to run together after a while.

semiopen · 10-09-2009, 07:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

I have recently heard Brother Richard of atheistnexus talk about his deconversion. (You might want to talk to him about common interests.)

After he went from a fundamentalist minister to a liberal Christian, he still believed in theistic evolution and felt he needed to be familiar with creationist arguments, so he read some Answers in Genesis material. AIG proved conclusively that Christianity requires a literal reading of Genesis. If there was no Garden of Eden and no fall, then there was no original sin that required Jesus' sacrifice, and no point to Christianity. Since he knew that evolution was based on good science, AIG was the final straw that turned him into a non-believer.

I missed this until just now.

This must be an extreme view, seeing that most Christians don't believe in a literal interpretation. How do these Christians deal with original sin? Hate to show my ignorance, but I thought Jesus had himself curicifed for general principles, is original sin the only acceptable theological reason for this?

Toto · 10-09-2009, 09:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by semiopen

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

I have recently heard Brother Richard of atheistnexus talk about his deconversion. (You might want to talk to him about common interests.)

After he went from a fundamentalist minister to a liberal Christian, he still believed in theistic evolution and felt he needed to be familiar with creationist arguments, so he read some Answers in Genesis material. AIG proved conclusively that Christianity requires a literal reading of Genesis. If there was no Garden of Eden and no fall, then there was no original sin that required Jesus' sacrifice, and no point to Christianity. Since he knew that evolution was based on good science, AIG was the final straw that turned him into a non-believer.

I missed this until just now.

This must be an extreme view, seeing that most Christians don't believe in a literal interpretation. How do these Christians deal with original sin? Hate to show my ignorance, but I thought Jesus had himself curicifed for general principles, is original sin the only acceptable theological reason for this?

Without original sin, the crucifixion is just pointless cruelty. What general principle would make that meaningful?

Many modern Christians are really confused Deists. They think that Jesus was a wise teacher, a victim of injustice, and an inspiration to the better side of his followers. For them, I suspect original sin is a punch line in the Tom Lehrer song.

spamandham · 10-09-2009, 10:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by semiopen

This must be an extreme view, seeing that most Christians don't believe in a literal interpretation. How do these Christians deal with original sin? Hate to show my ignorance, but I thought Jesus had himself curicifed for general principles, is original sin the only acceptable theological reason for this?

The Catholic church teaches that original sin is our "sin nature", and not an imputed guilt caused by Adam and Eve.

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10-08-2009, 11:12 AM	#43
Minimalist Veteran Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: Arizona Posts: 1,808	Well, that is the argument that is going on, bacht. Increasingly the maximalists are being shut out of the debate which is between the centrists (Finkelstein, Dever, and now Amihai Mazar) and the minimalists (Davies', Lemche, Thompson.) There is no non-biblical reference to Josiah, either. So, we shall see.

10-08-2009, 10:58 PM	#45
Minimalist Veteran Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: Arizona Posts: 1,808	No, sorry, different D. Dever's book "Did God Have A Wife" outlines the archaeological evidence for polytheism in Judah. I know I've mentioned it somewhere recently....can't recall if it was this thread or some other. Things start to run together after a while.

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