Freethought & Rationalism Archive

JonA · 11-09-2011, 11:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Quote:

Originally Posted by JonA

... it is almost certain that early Christians believed their Jesus/Joshua to be a different character than the other Jesuses/Joshuas in Scripture and lore.

How can you be so certain that gospel Jesus was not meant to be an allegorical version of Jesus son of Nun, Moses' lieutenant?

LOL. I see now...

The objections weren't meant to be serious.

Carry on with the humor, then.

Toto · 11-09-2011, 12:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JonA

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

How can you be so certain that gospel Jesus was not meant to be an allegorical version of Jesus son of Nun, Moses' lieutenant?

LOL. I see now...

The objections weren't meant to be serious.

Carry on with the humor, then.

There is some serious scholarly analysis behind this. Pretending that it is a joke will not win you any points.

stephan huller · 11-09-2011, 12:06 PM

Clearly Jesus is likened to Joshua in early Christian literature. The only question is - for what purpose?

Sheshbazzar · 11-09-2011, 02:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by semiopen

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

The Scriptures and Moses are emphatically clear that there would come an Anointed PRIEST, KING, and PROPHET of whose rule there would be no end.

Moses himself prophesied;

Quote:

15. "Yahweh your Eloha will raise up for you a PROPHET like unto me from among your own brothers. You must listen to him. ....

18.I (Yahweh Elohim is speaking) will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto you, and will put MY words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.

19. And it shall be that whoever will not hear My words, which He speaks in My name, I will require it of him."

This is an interesting but ambitious reading of this.

Jewish Exegesis generally considers this to be a reference to generic prophets as opposed to a single guy.

Look at the verses surrounding this.

Quote:

DEUT 18:14 For these nations, that thou art to dispossess, hearken unto soothsayers, and unto diviners; but as for thee, the LORD thy God hath not suffered thee so to do.
DEUT 18:15 A prophet will the LORD thy God raise up unto thee, from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;

This seems to be saying that these guys use nasty soothsayers, I'll give you nice kosher prophets.

Quote:

DEUT 18:16 according to all that thou didst desire of the LORD thy God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying: 'Let me not hear again the voice of the LORD my God, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not.'
DEUT 18:17 And the LORD said unto me: 'They have well said that which they have spoken.
DEUT 18:18 I will raise them up a prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee; and I will put My words in his mouth, and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.
DEUT 18:19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto My words which he shall speak in My name, I will require it of him.
DEUT 18:20 But the prophet, that shall speak a word presumptuously in My name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, that same prophet shall die.'
DEUT 18:21 And if thou say in thy heart: 'How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken?'
DEUT 18:22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken; the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously, thou shalt not be afraid of him.

As we go a little further from 18:19 the subject of a false prophet is brought up. While we might wonder about the intelligence of a prophet who is stupid enough to make specific testable predictions, the context seems to suggest that the verse is talking about prophets in general as opposed to the big boss.

The Prophet to come is spoken of in verses 15,18 & 19 is a 'Prophet' in the singular not 'Prophets' plural, and is in each instance of usage referred to in the masculine singular 'he' and 'him'. One Big Boss.

I don't see anything the least bit 'ambitious' about it.
This translation is supported by The Jewish Publishing Society translation, the Complete Jewish Bible translation, (and even by your Chabad rendition in Post #53 above) and every other -JEWISH- produced translation of these verses that I am aware of. (other than the personally supplied rendition of THE NAME)

(Jewish 'commentary' as with Rashi above, is an entirely different matter altogether, with their imaginations and 'interpretations' going all over the place.)

I am sure that each of these verses have been carefully and long examined by the most proficient -JEWISH- and Hebrew language scholars, and that these -JEWISH- supplied renderings accurately reflect the actual content of the Hebrew texts. (I read Hebrew, and of course concur with these -JEWISH- translations. )

Anyone proposing a differing translation, one substituting 'Prophets' for 'Prophet' and 'they' and 'them' for the 'he' and 'him's', might well take it up with those -JEWISH- Hebrew scholars that produced and support the JPS and CJB versions

Many Jews who do not accept the Nazarene as being that Prophet of whom Moses spoke, still believe that these prophecies apply to that (individual) Prophet and KING who is yet to be revealed.

SHESHBAZZAR THE HEBREW

.

cornbread_r2 · 11-09-2011, 06:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hylidae

Quote:

Originally Posted by cornbread_r2

Woweee, you guys don't mess around!

Welcome to FRDB.

Thanks!

And thanks to all for the discussion. While my opening question was really more about translation convention than parallelism, I was interested in that too.

I've seen Jesus referred to as the New Moses and the New Adam, but I don't recall ever seeing him referred to as the New Joshua. Did early Christians really not make a connection between Jesus/Joshua the messiah and Joshua/Jesus the conqueror of the Promised Land? It would seem to be unavoidable to me.

semiopen · 11-10-2011, 05:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

Quote:

Originally Posted by semiopen

This is an interesting but ambitious reading of this.

Jewish Exegesis generally considers this to be a reference to generic prophets as opposed to a single guy.

Look at the verses surrounding this.

This seems to be saying that these guys use nasty soothsayers, I'll give you nice kosher prophets.

As we go a little further from 18:19 the subject of a false prophet is brought up. While we might wonder about the intelligence of a prophet who is stupid enough to make specific testable predictions, the context seems to suggest that the verse is talking about prophets in general as opposed to the big boss.

The Prophet to come is spoken of in verses 15,18 & 19 is a 'Prophet' in the singular not 'Prophets' plural, and is in each instance of usage referred to in the masculine singular 'he' and 'him'. One Big Boss.

I don't see anything the least bit 'ambitious' about it.
This translation is supported by The Jewish Publishing Society translation, the Complete Jewish Bible translation, (and even by your Chabad rendition in Post #53 above) and every other -JEWISH- produced translation of these verses that I am aware of. (other than the personally supplied rendition of THE NAME)

(Jewish 'commentary' as with Rashi above, is an entirely different matter altogether, with their imaginations and 'interpretations' going all over the place.)

I am sure that each of these verses have been carefully and long examined by the most proficient -JEWISH- and Hebrew language scholars, and that these -JEWISH- supplied renderings accurately reflect the actual content of the Hebrew texts. (I read Hebrew, and of course concur with these -JEWISH- translations. )

Anyone proposing a differing translation, one substituting 'Prophets' for 'Prophet' and 'they' and 'them' for the 'he' and 'him's', might well take it up with those -JEWISH- Hebrew scholars that produced and support the JPS and CJB versions

Many Jews who do not accept the Nazarene as being that Prophet of whom Moses spoke, still believe that these prophecies apply to that (individual) Prophet and KING who is yet to be revealed.

SHESHBAZZAR THE HEBREW

.

This might make some sense if Moses wrote Deuteronomy.

Your argument is based on whether "prophet" is singular or plural. If we ignore this the plain meaning of the passage is that the institution of prophets is being discussed.

If the passage is about Jesus H specifically, or reasonable facsimile then what are we to make of

Quote:

20 But any prophet who presumes to speak in My name an oracle that I did not command him to utter, or who speaks in the name of other gods -- that prophet shall die." 21 And should you ask yourselves, "How can we know that the oracle was not spoken by the LORD?" -- 22 if the prophet speaks in the name of the LORD and the oracle does not come true, that oracle was not spoken by the LORD; the prophet has uttered it presumptuously: do not stand in dread of him. (Deu 18:1 TNK)

The one becomes many now - any prophet. 18:20 the false prophet will die; Jesus H satisfied that. 18:22 commands us not to get overly impressed with someone whose prophecies don't come true. I think there are a few of Jesus H's that have an asterisk behind them.

Deut 18 is clearly not talking about a single prophet, Deut 18:15 is somewhat unclear but it refers to a Moses clone not to a messiah.

Sheshbazzar · 11-10-2011, 07:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by semiopen

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

Quote:

Originally Posted by semiopen

This is an interesting but ambitious reading of this.

Jewish Exegesis generally considers this to be a reference to generic prophets as opposed to a single guy.

Look at the verses surrounding this.

This seems to be saying that these guys use nasty soothsayers, I'll give you nice kosher prophets.

As we go a little further from 18:19 the subject of a false prophet is brought up. While we might wonder about the intelligence of a prophet who is stupid enough to make specific testable predictions, the context seems to suggest that the verse is talking about prophets in general as opposed to the big boss.

The Prophet to come is spoken of in verses 15,18 & 19 is a 'Prophet' in the singular not 'Prophets' plural, and is in each instance of usage referred to in the masculine singular 'he' and 'him'. One Big Boss.

I don't see anything the least bit 'ambitious' about it.
This translation is supported by The Jewish Publishing Society translation, the Complete Jewish Bible translation, (and even by your Chabad rendition in Post #53 above) and every other -JEWISH- produced translation of these verses that I am aware of. (other than the personally supplied rendition of THE NAME)

(Jewish 'commentary' as with Rashi above, is an entirely different matter altogether, with their imaginations and 'interpretations' going all over the place.)

I am sure that each of these verses have been carefully and long examined by the most proficient -JEWISH- and Hebrew language scholars, and that these -JEWISH- supplied renderings accurately reflect the actual content of the Hebrew texts. (I read Hebrew, and of course concur with these -JEWISH- translations. )

Anyone proposing a differing translation, one substituting 'Prophets' for 'Prophet' and 'they' and 'them' for the 'he' and 'him's', might well take it up with those -JEWISH- Hebrew scholars that produced and support the JPS and CJB versions

Many Jews who do not accept the Nazarene as being that Prophet of whom Moses spoke, still believe that these prophecies apply to that (individual) Prophet and KING who is yet to be revealed.

SHESHBAZZAR THE HEBREW

.

This might make some sense if Moses wrote Deuteronomy.

Your argument is based on whether "prophet" is singular or plural. If we ignore this the plain meaning of the passage is that the institution of prophets is being discussed.

Unless one has a bias or an agenda there is no reason at all to 'ignore' the plain sense of what verses 18:15, 18, & 19 state; "a Prophet" singular, "He" and "Him" singular

Quote:

Originally Posted by simiopen

If the passage is about Jesus H specifically, or reasonable facsimile

I do not believe in any Jebus, or any literal veracity of the NTs writings or claims.

Quote:

Originally Posted by simiopen

then what are we to make of

Quote:

20 But any prophet who presumes to speak in My name an oracle that I did not command him to utter, or who speaks in the name of other gods -- that prophet shall die." 21 And should you ask yourselves, "How can we know that the oracle was not spoken by the LORD?" -- 22 if the prophet speaks in the name of the LORD and the oracle does not come true, that oracle was not spoken by the LORD; the prophet has uttered it presumptuously: do not stand in dread of him. (Deu 18:1 TNK)

Any other prophet who shall come, and shall speaks words that YHWH Elohim has not commanded, or pronounces his 'prophecies' under the name(s) of any other name, than YHWH the Elohim of the HEBREWS, that prophet (a single individual) shall die. If not under the hands of those charged to carry out that sentence, then under the hand of YHWH Elohim Himself in the Day of Judgment.
That prophet shall surely die the death, cease to be, and his name forever removed or barred from entry into the Book of the living (Malachi 3:16)

Quote:

Originally Posted by semiopen

The one becomes many now - any prophet.

Yes, any prophet -singular- as many as shall violate the command.
It is my view that -every single christian preacher- is doomed to 'die the death' in THe Day of Judgment, out of neglect of not taking this warning to heart.

Quote:

Originally Posted by semiopen

18:20 the false prophet will die;

Who said otherwise? YHWH Elohim shall judge them with righteouss Judgement, one by one.

Quote:

Originally Posted by semiopen

Jesus H satisfied that.

The books written about this Rabbi were composed ecstatic religious fanatics prone to 'visions' and evidently willing to invent and to lie without compunction..
We do not know with any certainty (if there ever were indeed such a man) what this possible individual actually spoke or did.
His case may only be resolved by the certain knowledge of YHWH Elohim Himself in The Day of The Judgment.

Quote:

Originally Posted by semiopen

18:22 commands us not to get overly impressed with someone whose prophecies don't come true. I think there are a few of Jesus H's that have an asterisk behind them.

But you have no way of knowing with any certainty, whether this rabbi actually made any of those false prophecies, or whether it was latter christians that made up those false 'prophecies' and stuffed them into the mouth of a dead -JEWISH- man who could no longer object.

You ought to leave any such uninformed and harsh judgments to YHWH Elohim, whom alone is the ONLY One able to justly Judge his case.

As for me, I personally do not believe that any such person, as described in the 'gospels' and NT writings ever walked on this earth.
JC is simply a literary invention.

Quote:

Originally Posted by semiopen

Deut 18 is clearly not talking about a single prophet,

We disagree. YHWH Elohim resolve our disagreement.

Quote:

Originally Posted by semiopen

Deut 18:15 is somewhat unclear but it refers to a Moses clone not to a messiah.

Moses was an individual, any Prophet 'like unto' Moses would also need to be an individual like Moses.
ONE with the openly displayed power and authority of Moses, to call down fire from heaven, or at his dismay, cause the earth to cleave assunder beneath the feet of the rebellious. Or to make intercession for his kinsman with YHWH.

Other than one likely imaginary individual, of whom there is no evidence of doing the works of Moses, NO one prophet or group of prophets in all of human history has ever yet filled Moses sandals.

That Prophet, if there shall ever be One, remains yet to come.

And if He is to come, Israel must yet enter into its darkest hour in all of human history.
Only then, in the face of insurmountable adversity and destruction can that mighty Deliverance promised within the TaNaKa come to pass.
And ALL of the earth must see it, and be reformed.
(unlike that 'coming' of an obscure Jewish rabbi preaching mumbo-jumbo in a ancient back-water.)

SHESHBAZZAR THE HEBREW

.

semiopen · 11-10-2011, 08:36 AM

np Shesh. I was just making technical points. I'm sort of doubtful on this guy's appearance and that probably affects the editorial content.

Debunking the Arguments of Christian Fundamentalists and Evangelists

Quote:

“THE CRITERIA TO BE FULFILLED BY THE JEWISH MESSIAH...
1) He must be Jewish. (Deuteronomy 17:15, Numbers 24:17)

Deuteronomy 17:15 might be considered a nice Jewish Messianic verse.

Quote:

you shall be free to set a king over yourself, one chosen by the LORD your God. Be sure to set as king over yourself one of your own people; you must not set a foreigner over you, one who is not your kinsman. (Deu 17:15 TNK)

King is singular here, but there is no doubt (famous last words) that it just doesn't apply to the the FDR of kings. Of course the prospect of a non-Jewish messiah is revolting.

Quote:

17What I see for them is not yet, What I behold will not be soon: A star rises from Jacob, A scepter comes forth from Israel; It smashes the brow of Moab, The foundation of all children of Seth. 18 Edom becomes a possession, Yea, Seir a possession of its enemies; But Israel is triumphant. (Num 24:17-18 TNK)

Maybe this is why the messiah is considered to be military. Gonna be a little tough to defeat Moab and Edom in the future.

An earlier part of Deut 17 goes -

Quote:

15 He took up his theme, and said: Word of Balaam son of Beor, Word of the man whose eye is true, 16 Word of him who hears God's speech, Who obtains knowledge from the Most High, And beholds visions from the Almighty, Prostrate, but with eyes unveiled: (Num 24:15-16 TNK)

Interesting in conjunction with 18:15

Sheshbazzar · 11-10-2011, 11:15 AM

The names of nations change over time, sometimes several times. The writers would sensibly supply the then contemporary name of the inhabitants of that region.
The future inhabitants of that region ('the coasts of', 'the borders of', or ' the land of' see Josh 11:1-3, 13:1-32) would be the ones, that are to be defeated in the future, and their lands divided up (13:7) come at last into permanent Israelite possession.

From your referenced site;

Quote:

“THE CRITERIA TO BE FULFILLED BY THE JEWISH MESSIAH

In an accurate translation of the Jewish Scriptures, the word "Moshiach" is never translated as "Messiah," but as "anointed."1Nevertheless, Judaism has always maintained a fundamental belief in a Messianic figure. Since the concept of a Messiah is one that was given by -YHWH- to the Jews, Jewish tradition is best qualified to describe and recognize the expected Messiah. This tradition has its foundation in numerous biblical references, many of which are cited below. Judaism understands the Messiah to be a human being (with no connotation of deity or divinity) who will bring about certain changes in the world and who must fulfill certain specific criteria before being acknowledged as the Messiah.

These specific criteria are as follows:

1) He must be Jewish. (Deuteronomy 17:15, Numbers 24:17)

2) He must be a member of the tribe of Judah (Genesis 49:10) and a direct male descendent of both King David (I Chronicles 17:11, Psalm 89:29-38, Jeremiah 33:17, II Samuel 7:12-16) and King Solomon. (I Chronicles 22:10, II Chronicles 7:18)

3) He must gather the Jewish people from exile and return them to Israel. (Isaiah 27:12-13, Isaiah 11:12)

4) He must rebuild the Jewish Temple in Jerusalem. (Micah 4:1)

5) He must bring world peace. (Isaiah 2:4, Isaiah 11:6, Micah 4:3)

6) He must influence the entire world to acknowledge and serve one EL. (Isaiah 11:9, Isaiah 40:5, Zephaniah 3:9)

All of these criteria for the Messiah are best stated in the book of Ezekiel chapter 37:24-28:

"And My servant David will be a king over them, and they will all have one shepherd, and they will walk in My ordinances, and keep My statutes, and observe them, and they shall live on the land that I gave to Jacob My servant...and I will make a covenant of peace with them; it will be an everlasting covenant and I will set my sanctuary in their midst forever and My dwelling place shall be with them, and I will be their ELOHIM and they will be My people. And the nations will know that I am YHWH who sanctifies Israel, when My sanctuary is in their midst forever."

If an individual fails to fulfill even one of these conditions, he cannot be the Messiah.”

Reinstating the ancient and proper terms EL and ELOHIM, and ha'SHEM, The Tetragramation, I concur.

SHESHBAZZAR THE HEBREW

.

mountainman · 11-10-2011, 01:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

Clearly Jesus is likened to Joshua in early Christian literature. The only question is - for what purpose?

One purpose was in order to give the Christian authors the antiquity they sought in order for Eusebius to prove in many books that the antiquity of the books of Moses exceeded the antiquity and the books of Plato. Joshua in the Greek LXX and Jesus in the Greek New Testament share a single nomina sacra code. The ancient name of the Warlord Joshua and the new and strange name of the Christian Warlord Jesus were resolved to the one Greek encryption. What a harmonious continuum!

After the great war Moses and his lieutenant Joshua establish a centralised monotheistic state religion in the Judean empire (probably following the ancient Egyptian state monotheistic condition). Ardashir did the same thing in the 3rd century in the Persian Empire and Constantine simply followed suit in the Roman Empire, as did Muhammad a few centuries later in the Islamic empire. Thus another common purpose in all these inventions of "Holy Books" was propaganda in service of the war machine - "War is a Racket" (Smedley Butler).

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

11-09-2011, 12:06 PM	#63
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	Clearly Jesus is likened to Joshua in early Christian literature. The only question is - for what purpose?

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.