Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Dean Anderson · 12-15-2005, 04:44 AM

This is meant mainly in jest (and I certainly wouldn't want to try and formally defend it), but it does raise an interesting point that I think has been missed by most people looking for Biblical Absurdities...

As many of you are probably aware, there have been quite a few discussions about the Sodom and Gomorrah story - and about what it is "about".

However, these discussions have missed a crucial point that we should learn from the story.

First, we need to look briefly at Genesis 18 - the prelude to the story...

Quote:

18:20 And Jehovah said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous;
18:21 I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.
18:22 And the men turned from thence, and went toward Sodom: but Abraham stood yet before Jehovah.
18:23 And Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt thou consume the righteous with the wicked?
18:24 Peradventure there are fifty righteous within the city: wilt thou consume and not spare the place for the fifty righteous that are therein?
18:25 That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked, that so the righteous should be as the wicked; that be far from thee: shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?
18:26 And Jehovah said, If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare all the place for their sake.
18:27 And Abraham answered and said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the Lord, who am but dust and ashes:
18:28 peradventure there shall lack five of the fifty righteous: wilt thou destroy all the city for lack of five? And he said, I will not destroy it, if I find there forty and five.
18:29 And he spake unto him yet again, and said, Peradventure there shall be forty found there. And he said, I will not do it for the forty's sake.
18:30 And he said, Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak: peradventure there shall thirty be found there. And he said, I will not do it, if I find thirty there.
18:31 And he said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the Lord: peradventure there shall be twenty found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for the twenty's sake.
18:32 And he said, Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak yet but this once: peradventure ten shall be found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for the ten's sake.

Now, leaving off theological discussions about why Jehovah is walking around and why he needs to visit the cities to see whether the stories about them are true or not, there is an important point here.

Jehovah specifically promises Abraham that if there are even 10 righteous people in the city of Sodom then it shall be spared.

So we skip forward now to Genesis 19, where the angels that were with Jehovah earlier have arrived at the town and the mob has come for them...

Quote:

19:6 And Lot went out unto them to the door, and shut the door after him.
19:7 And he said, I pray you, my brethren, do not so wickedly.
19:8 Behold now, I have two daughters that have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes: only unto these men do nothing, forasmuch as they are come under the shadow of my roof.

So we know that Lot has two unmarried daughters.

Quote:

19:11 And they smote the men that were at the door of the house with blindness, both small and great, so that they wearied themselves to find the door.
19:12 And the men said unto Lot, Hast thou here any besides? son-in-law, and thy sons, and thy daughters, and whomsoever thou hast in the city, bring them out of the place:
19:13 for we will destroy this place, because the cry of them is waxed great before Jehovah: and Jehovah hath sent us to destroy it.
19:14 And Lot went out, and spake unto his sons-in-law, who married his daughters, and said, Up, get you out of this place; for Jehovah will destroy the city.

So, here we have the rest of the family of Lot.

There is Lot (1) and his wife (2), and his his two unmarried daughters (3,4) and his sons (plural, so there are at least two - 5,6) and his married daughters (plural again, so another two - 7,8) and his sons in law (another plural, so at least another two - 9,10).

There are a minimum of ten people in Lot's family. There are probably more, since we don't know how many sons he had or how many married daughters he had - only that both are plural. Since the Angels acting on Jehovah's behalf want these people out of the city and destruction of the "wicked", we can assume that these people are "righteous".

So the angels sent by God to find ten righteous people in order that the city might be spared have found ten in a single household - and that is without looking around the rest of the city - but Jehovah destroys the city anyway!

So, to sum up:

1) Jehovah says he will search the city for righteous people.
2) Jehovah says that if even 10 are found then the city will be spared.
3) Jehovah's servants find at least 10 righteous people in the family they are staying with.
4) Rather than sparing the city (as promised) they persuade some of these righteous to leave - thus cheating and taking the number of righteous in the city down below the requisite 10.
5) To compound this blatant cheating (the 10 were still found in the city - so Jehovah should still spare it), the Angels then leave and Jehovah destroys the city without searching the rest of it in case there are more righteous there - like he promised he would.

6) So therefore Jehovah is a cheat, who weasels out of promises he makes...

seebs · 12-15-2005, 04:51 AM

It's beautiful.

However, Lot only has sons in law and unmarried daughters; the angels ask about sons, but Lot has none to talk to. So Lot and his immediate (non-moved-out) family are 4, and the sons-in-law and their wives are 4 more.

BUT!

What makes you think the daughters are righteous? Or even Lot, whom many Hebrew commentators see as a rather poor figure?

Lot's sons-in-law disregard him and laugh it off, so they probably weren't righteous either. Lot's wife turns to look after being commanded not to. Lot's daughters seduce him.

The only one who might be righteous is Lot, and Hebrew commentators did not think highly of him.

If this was the best Sodom had to offer, it may not have had ten righteous people.

regis · 12-15-2005, 05:00 AM

How about babies? They don't count? I'm betting there were at least ten of them. But, god weasels his way out of a whole host of situations & goes back on his word, so he'd probably be able to come up with some bullshit that'd work for True Believers (TM). Thankfully, it's all just silly fiction . . .

:devil1:

Storme · 12-15-2005, 07:48 AM

Quote:

Jehovah specifically promises Abraham that if there are even 10 righteous people in the city of Sodom then it shall be spared.

Well, yes, but you’re forgetting the Biblical view that “none are righteous�?—so there never was any real chance that there’d be any “righteous�? people to spare. That’s the point. But more to the point, elsewhere in the Bible god says: “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy . . .�? And really, is this so different from our own Darwinian atheism? Consider Dawkins’s words: "In a universe of blind physical forces and genetic replication, some people are going to get hurt, other people are going to get lucky, and you won't find any rhyme or reason in it, nor any justice.�?

So it’s either “blind physical forces,�? or a god, who “will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy.�? Either way, ultimately, we don’t have a fucking clue, or a choice . . . and maybe the Biblical writers were just attempting to put a positive spin on the shitty situation that we find ourselves in?

Arctish · 12-15-2005, 10:01 AM

I also note Gemorrah wasn't even given the chance to produce any righteous citizens before is was bombarded with Holy Napalm. And if the Sodomites were destroyed for being homosexuals*, what was the reason given for blasting the Gemorrians?

*according to some fundamental chriatian sects; the Bible indicates the offense to God was lack of hospitality and haughtiness.

Yahzi · 12-16-2005, 12:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pervy

So we know that Lot has two unmarried daughters.

[fundie]
When God said people, he meant men.

I mean, doh.
[/fundie]

:rolling:

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12-15-2005, 04:51 AM	#2
seebs Contributor Join Date: May 2002 Location: Saint Paul, MN Posts: 24,524	It's beautiful. However, Lot only has sons in law and unmarried daughters; the angels ask about sons, but Lot has none to talk to. So Lot and his immediate (non-moved-out) family are 4, and the sons-in-law and their wives are 4 more. BUT! What makes you think the daughters are righteous? Or even Lot, whom many Hebrew commentators see as a rather poor figure? Lot's sons-in-law disregard him and laugh it off, so they probably weren't righteous either. Lot's wife turns to look after being commanded not to. Lot's daughters seduce him. The only one who might be righteous is Lot, and Hebrew commentators did not think highly of him. If this was the best Sodom had to offer, it may not have had ten righteous people.

12-15-2005, 05:00 AM	#3
regis Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: calgary, ab Posts: 690	How about babies? They don't count? I'm betting there were at least ten of them. But, god weasels his way out of a whole host of situations & goes back on his word, so he'd probably be able to come up with some bullshit that'd work for True Believers (TM). Thankfully, it's all just silly fiction . . . :devil1:

12-15-2005, 10:01 AM	#5
Arctish Veteran Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Alaska Posts: 4,540	I also note Gemorrah wasn't even given the chance to produce any righteous citizens before is was bombarded with Holy Napalm. And if the Sodomites were destroyed for being homosexuals, what was the reason given for blasting the Gemorrians? according to some fundamental chriatian sects; the Bible indicates the offense to God was lack of hospitality and haughtiness.

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