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02-05-2007, 06:02 PM | #81 | ||||||
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Was that really that hard to understand? And in any case, Jay did ignore (or at least failed to mention) what was there, giving us the impression through both his failure to acknowledge what Lane Fox did say about Eusebius, and his attribution of Lane Fox's words about the tendencies of certain second and third century Christians ("the overachievers") to people like Eusebius, that Lane Fox did not have a very high estimation of Eusebius as an historian and even went so far as to call him, as he does of the second and third century "overachievers" he mentions, a fabricator of spurious literature. Jeffrey GIBSON |
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02-05-2007, 06:50 PM | #82 | |||||||||
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02-05-2007, 08:14 PM | #83 | |||
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in which it may be described that the author writes tongue-in-cheek? What does this mean to you? I find, in reading the above, that M. is indirectly saying he has a low opinion of Eusebius, even from the perspective of chronography, the "science" underpinning history. Otherwise, what does M mean when he speaks of "saving Eusebius' reputation as a competent chronographer" in relation to Schwartz? Quote:
IMO, every single BC&H researcher should read this article. Its author was one of the more highly regarded ancient historians of the twentieth century, and for those impressed by language skills in Greek, Hebrew, Latin, German, French, Italian, etc, etc this researcher covered the terrain. Many issues stem from this article for the careful minded. Momigliano is the specialist in ancient history, as distinct from "biblical history". |
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02-06-2007, 08:00 PM | #84 | ||
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But two things first. 1. As you read this, keep in mind the observations that I made to Jay that in appealing to Lane Fox to back up his claim, Jay has conveniently(?) ignored and conspicuously left out several facts, namely: (a) that in the quote he gives us Lane-Fox is not speaking about the genre of Historia or the characteristics of the writings of historians and chroniclers such as Eusebius, but rather about writings produced by those who -- in contrast to those baptized in infancy-- had been baptized as adults and had renounced much in doing so -- and who believed in self mortifications and eagerly anticipated martyrdom (p. 339); but alsoand therefore that Lane Fox does not back up Jay's claims about the nature and character of the time of Eusebius or the conclusion that Jay draws from it that what Eusebius wrote was spurious and fraudulent and that what he himself engaged in great forgery and deception. 2. After you read this, tell me whether or not you think I have any grounds, let alone good ones, for my observations. In order to help with this, that is to say, in order to show how Jay has employed selective quotation to adduce Lane Fox as an authority who provides warrants for his (Jay's) claim that "Eusebius wrote in a time when fraud, deception and forgery was the norm", I have highlighted the words of Lane Fox that Jay has given us. Jeffrey **** Quote:
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02-06-2007, 08:02 PM | #85 | |
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02-07-2007, 07:34 AM | #86 | |
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Hi Moderators et al,
In considering your judgement in this case, please note these parts of the quoted text: The effects were visible in the very structure of each church community. If the years of preparation were one part of the faith's appeal, they also promoted divisions of merit and progress. By C. 300, there were novice "hearers" as well as the "catechumens," who were receiving instruction before baptism.' It is disputed whether sinners were obliged to make a public confession, but one passage in Origen implies that they were, and two of Bishop Cyprian's letters assume such statements, once from Christians who had lapsed during persecution, once from Christian "virgins" who had lapsed in the bedroom. Personal sins became fascinating public knowledge. In the 450s, Pope Leo I considered public confession an "intolerable habit," evident among Italian bishops. In many churches. it seems, it had long been recognized, linking shame and group solidarity to healing through humiliation.' In the fourth century, the problem explicitly worried Church leaders, as Christians delayed full commitment until their deathbed. Delay was all the easier because of the humane Christian view that a novice or apprentice should not be denied early baptism if he seemed about to die. As infant mortality was so miserably high, parents had a good claim that a baby should be baptized before its probable death: the point is made clearly in Latin inscriptions in the later Christian Empire. These four passages taken together indicate that the author is not talking only about Second and Third century Christians when he talks about the divisions of Christians within the Church and the problem of "overachievers." I find no indication here that he is delimiting his observations to non-historical Christian writers. More generally, I observe that any statement can be attacked on the grounds that it is selective and incomplete. If I say, "My name is Jay," it can be attacked for leaving out the last name and one can declare that the speaker is "selective" i.e. deceptive, i.e. hiding something, i.e. lying. If I say my name is Jay Raskin, one can attack it for being selective and leaving out the middle name. If I give all three names, one can attack the statement for being selective and leaving out an alias like Philosopher Jay. If I give names and aliases, one can attack the statement for leaving out descriptors, such as the Jay Raskin who wrote so and so. If I include name and a few descriptors, one can attack it for leaving out other descriptions, e.g., Why did you not mention that you were in Greece in '82, '83, '84, '87, '90, '92, '98, and '2005. Selective memory, perhaps Raskin? The game of inquisitor may be fun for the person playing the part of the inquisitor, but it distracts from any chance of serious discussions and honestly, I have better things to do. Sincerely, Philosopher Jay Quote:
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02-07-2007, 04:35 PM | #87 | ||||
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1 Are these passages meant to be taken together? 2. Even if they are, so what? I never said that in Chapter 7 Lane Fox spoke only about second and third century Christians when he talks about divisions within the Church and the problem of the "overachievers". But that's not the issue, is it? The issue is what Lane Fox identifies as the period in which particular Christians --i.e., those he calls "overachievers" -- produced the particular literature he notes they they did. Quote:
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What you've done in your appeal to Lane Fox is tantamount to an appeal to, say, what Gibbons has said, as justifying a claim on your part that Raskin was in Corinth for a full 13 year period, when what Gibbons actually said was that Raskin was only in Greece at specific times during that period. Quote:
1. that I am playing such a game; andplease address this claim of yours about the effects of "playing the inquisitor" to Socrates who, as you have to know, not only did nothing but play the "game of inquisitor", but thought (as did Plato) that it was certainly a necessary, indispensable, salutary, primary, and wholly legitimate means of promoting discussion. You did take courses on Socrates in pursuit of your Ph.D. in Philosophy, didn't you, Jay? You were exposed to the ELENCHUS, were you not? Are you telling me that all this was nothing more than a distraction from any chance of serious discussions"? And hey, I thought you weren't speaking to me any more! Jeffrey GIBSON |
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02-07-2007, 05:11 PM | #88 | ||
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of a new form of historiography squarely and exclusively at the pen of Eusebius. In fact IMO the case is quite plain as can be seen from the entire article. As a totally separate and distinct issue, this thread by Jay represents an essential questioning of the modus operandi of Eusebius. Questioning his integrity as an historian. You will see multiple references throughout this article by Momigliano in which the integrity of Eusebius is called into question at the highest level. Jay Raskin's opinion that Eusebius forged the letter of the Gallic "christians" is consistent with all references made in this article by M with respect to Eusebian (lack of) integrity, and to Eusebian invention of new forms of historiography. |
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02-07-2007, 05:16 PM | #89 |
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02-07-2007, 05:25 PM | #90 | |
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Lane Fox says that the impetus for this invention of authority was the strict regard for authority and the growing respect for "orthodoxy" - not the fear of persecution. But for whatever reason, fraud, deception, and forgery were the norm. One could say that fraud, deception and forgery have been the norm through much of history, whenever ideological or political interests are at stake. If Eusebius had suddenly reversed this trend and produced only an accurate, scrupulously honest accound of history, that would be a miracle worth noting. I don't think that Lane Fox notes such a miracle, as he has already been quoted as saying that Eusebius made stuff up where necessary. BTW - don't hurt your head banging it against the wall. |
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