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Old 02-05-2007, 06:02 PM   #81
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Originally Posted by Toto View Post
I have opened a thread in the moderator's conference room about this.

Jeffrey: I do not think that writing to Robin Lane Fox is the best way of solving this.
Why not. He knows what he wrote. And since Jay says that I've misinterpreted him, whereas he (Jay) hasn't, who best to decide the issue?

Quote:
Surely the words in his book should speak for themselves?
You'd think so. And that's just what I've claimed. But I wasn't the one who raised the issue of how there were ways of interpreting those words.

Quote:
It would help, when you claim that someone has taken something out of context, if you would quote some of the actual language. And I note that
It would also help that when someone claims that my claim about context is wrong, that he provides enough of the context to show me/us that I am wrong.



Quote:
But you did say:

Quote:
You also ignore all that Lane Fox has to say about (a great deal of it in praise of the careful historiography of) Eusebius on pp. 604-609 of Pagans and Christians. (Why is that?)
Quote:
Could you explain your reasoning here? Did you or did you not mean to say that Lane-Fox praises the careful historiography of Eusebius?
Yes. But I clearly did not say that that's all he does on those pages.

Was that really that hard to understand?

And in any case, Jay did ignore (or at least failed to mention) what was there, giving us the impression through both his failure to acknowledge what Lane Fox did say about Eusebius, and his attribution of Lane Fox's words about the tendencies of certain second and third century Christians ("the overachievers") to people like Eusebius, that Lane Fox did not have a very high estimation of Eusebius as an historian and even went so far as to call him, as he does of the second and third century "overachievers" he mentions, a fabricator of spurious literature.

Jeffrey GIBSON
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Old 02-05-2007, 06:50 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by Jeffrey
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toto
...Jeffrey: I do not think that writing to Robin Lane Fox is the best way of solving this.
Why not. He knows what he wrote. And since Jay says that I've misinterpreted him, whereas he (Jay) hasn't, who best to decide the issue?
The reader has to decide. Why don't you produce quotes that support your position?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeffrey
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toto
Surely the words in his book should speak for themselves?
You'd think so. And that's just what I've claimed. But I wasn't the one who raised the issue of how there were ways of interpreting those words.
I'll let that speak for itself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeffrey
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toto
But you did say:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeffrey
You also ignore all that Lane Fox has to say about (a great deal of it in praise of the careful historiography of) Eusebius on pp. 604-609 of Pagans and Christians. (Why is that?)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toto
Could you explain your reasoning here? Did you or did you not mean to say that Lane-Fox praises the careful historiography of Eusebius?
Yes. But I clearly did not say that that's all he does on those pages.

Was that really that hard to understand?
It seems to me that Robin Lane Fox says that Eusebius is precise with his details, some of which are wrong, and does not hesitate to make things up if necessary. He praises Eusebius for various things - rhetoric, polemic, Biblical exegesis, being able to move with the climate of the times. "Careful historiography" does not seem to be among Eusebius' many virtues. Or could you point out the exact language that supports your "interpretation"?

Quote:
And in any case, Jay did ignore (or at least failed to mention) what was there, giving us the impression through both his failure to acknowledge what Lane Fox did say about Eusebius, and his attribution of Lane Fox's words about the tendencies of certain second and third century Christians ("the overachievers") to people like Eusebius, that Lane Fox did not have a very high estimation of Eusebius as an historian and even went so far as to call him, as he does of the second and third century "overachievers" he mentions, a fabricator of spurious literature.

Jeffrey GIBSON
Robin Lane Fox says outright that Eusebius "when the context required, ... could distort the course of events to suit [his] argument. To live for a while in their company is to enter that tantalizing, literary world where not everything said is to be taken entirely at face value."
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Old 02-05-2007, 08:14 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by MM
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Originally Posted by jgibson000 View Post
IMO it is likely that not only did M fail to see any merit in Eusebius
as an historian, he also stated Eusebius' poor competency as something
less than an historian --- a chronographer.

At the beginning of the fourth century Christian chronology had already passed its creative stage. What Eusebius did was to correct and to improve the work of his predecessors, among whom he relied especially on Julius Africanus. [1] He corrected details which seemed to him wrong even to the extent of reducing the priority of the Biblical heroes over the pagan ones. Moses, a contemporary of Ogyges according to Julius Africanus, was made a contemporary of Kekrops with a loss of 300 years. Eusebius was not afraid of attacking St. Paul’s guesses about the chronology of the Book of Judges. He freely used Jewish and anti-Christian sources such as Prophyrios. He introduced a reckoning from Abraham which allowed him to avoid the pitfalls of a chronology according the first chapters of Genesis. He seems to have been the first to use the convenient method of presenting the chronology of the various nations in parallel columns. None of the earlier chronographers seems to have used this scheme, though it has often been attributed to Castor or to Julius Africanus. He made many mistakes, but they do not surprise us any longer.

Are we reading the same text? M writes the above to praise Eusebuis as a chronographer and a careful historian and as one who allowed people to think in terms of universal history.
Let me ask you another question here. Have you ever read an article
in which it may be described that the author writes tongue-in-cheek?
What does this mean to you? I find, in reading the above, that M. is
indirectly saying he has a low opinion of Eusebius, even from the
perspective of chronography, the "science" underpinning history.

Otherwise, what does M mean when he speaks of "saving Eusebius'
reputation as a competent chronographer" in relation to Schwartz?

Quote:
Well, there's one way of determining this. Though I'm probably violating some copyright law, here's the full article.

...[trimmed for bandwidth]....
Monumental JG!

IMO, every single BC&H researcher should read this article.
Its author was one of the more highly regarded ancient historians
of the twentieth century, and for those impressed by language
skills in Greek, Hebrew, Latin, German, French, Italian, etc, etc
this researcher covered the terrain.

Many issues stem from this article for the careful minded.
Momigliano is the specialist in ancient history, as distinct
from "biblical history".
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Old 02-06-2007, 08:00 PM   #84
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Jeffrey: I do not think that writing to Robin Lane Fox is the best way of solving this. Surely the words in his book should speak for themselves?

It would help, when you claim that someone has taken something out of context, if you would quote some of the actual language.
OK. Here (below) is the entirety of the passage from which Jay quoted in order to show that Lane Fox supports his (Jay's) claim that "Eusebius wrote in a time when fraud, deception and forgery was the norm".

But two things first.

1. As you read this, keep in mind the observations that I made to Jay that in appealing to Lane Fox to back up his claim, Jay has conveniently(?) ignored and conspicuously left out several facts, namely:
(a) that in the quote he gives us Lane-Fox is not speaking about the genre of Historia or the characteristics of the writings of historians and chroniclers such as Eusebius, but rather about writings produced by those who -- in contrast to those baptized in infancy-- had been baptized as adults and had renounced much in doing so -- and who believed in self mortifications and eagerly anticipated martyrdom (p. 339); but also

(b) that Lane Fox is speaking about the second and early third century, when persecution was a real specter hanging over the church, not the fourth, when Eusebius wrote, and after persecution has ceased.
and therefore that Lane Fox does not back up Jay's claims about the nature and character of the time of Eusebius or the conclusion that Jay draws from it that what Eusebius wrote was spurious and fraudulent and that what he himself engaged in great forgery and deception.

2. After you read this, tell me whether or not you think I have any grounds, let alone good ones, for my observations.

In order to help with this, that is to say, in order to show how Jay has employed selective quotation to adduce Lane Fox as an authority who provides warrants for his (Jay's) claim that "Eusebius wrote in a time when fraud, deception and forgery was the norm", I have highlighted the words of Lane Fox that Jay has given us.

Jeffrey

****
Quote:

7. Living Like Angels

The lasting impression left by the early church membership is one of social diversity. Yet it went with an ideal of human equality: in Christ, taught the Christians, all were equal and the distinctions of rank and degree were irrelevant. In church meetings, educated people had to sit as equals among other men's slaves and petty artisans. On both sides, the tensions were already evident in the churches of the Apostolic age.

While belittling rank, Christians also taught the vanity of worldly competition: the "love of honour" which propelled pagan cult and civic life became "vainglory. " These contrary values had their appeal, but they were not without consequence. It is the fate of groups who claim to abolish competition that they invert it and cause it to emerge elsewhere. In early Christianity, there was an obvious field to which competition could be transferred. If Christians were socially equal, spiritually they were acknowledged to be more diverse. The sayings of their Gospels already implied a double standard of achievement and understanding. "If you would be perfect, even as your father in heaven is perfect . . ."; in matters of conduct, the sky, it seemed, was the limit. Paul's letters had already recognized a distinction between a first- and a second-class Christian achievement, and as time passed, the gap increased. All Christians faced the same final test, but while the majority hoped only for a modest pass, a few aspired to congratulated honours. Christianity gave scope for this boundless perfectionism, while keeping in touch with those who aspired to much less. In pagan philosophy, there had been one ideal for the supremely wise and virtuous, another for persons of lower capacity, but philosophers were rare and the supremely wise were rarer still. Among pagans, no supernatural rewards and punishments attached to the ethic of perfection, and nothing in their religiousness required it as a life long ideal. We have seen how Christianity extended Scripture and theology to a very wide range of persons. There was a further innovation. It brought the tensions and evasions of a double standard into the experience of every Christian man and woman.

The effects were visible in the very structure of each church community. If the years of preparation were one part of the faith's appeal, they also promoted divisions of merit and progress. By C. 300, there were novice "hearers" as well as the "catechumens," who were receiving instruction before baptism.' There were also good and bad catechumens: Tertullian complains of Christians who used the interval before baptism as an excuse for concerted sinning, their final fling; the acts of the first councils after Constantine consider the same problem, and the further problem of catechumens who do not attend church for a long while and suddenly turn up, demanding baptism. The catechumen's official period of two to three years' preparation was variously spent, it seems. The baptismal rite was preceded by repentance of sins and frequent exorcism, giving an important role to the churches' retained exorcists. After baptism, Christians had only one last chance of forgiveness. Even so, the history of forgiveness had been a history of falling barriers whose every collapse was resisted but never regretted subsequently. First, all Christians were granted the second chance; then the second chance was extended to deadly sins, to adultery and to lapsing or pagan observance during persecution. Practice varied locally, but the second chance became attached to a ritual of fasting, weeping and humiliation.

Around 200, we see it in North Africa, where the idea of a pure Christian Church was strong: Tertullian describes how "Christian sinners spend the day sorrowing, and the night in vigils and tears, lying on the ground among clinging ashes, tossing in rough sackcloth and dirt, fasting and praying. "' Sometimes a penitent adulterer found himself "led into the midst of the brethren and prostrated, all in sackcloth and ashes ... a compound of disgrace and horror, before the widows, the elders, suing for everyone's tears, licking their footprints, clasping their very knees . . . " By the mid-third century, grades of sin and penance had begun to be defined, varying from a few weeks' correction to a lifetime of entreaty. In a church of the 250s, several classes of Christian were to be found: inside were gathered the virtuous and the minor sinners who were banned only from communion; outside waited the "standing" sinners in the porch and the serious cases who were required to grovel and ask for their brothers' prayers as they went in and out of tile building." If we miss this weekly evidence of the group's inner divisions, we will miss the flavour of' early Christian life. Whose turn would it be next? God alone could forgive, the Christians believed, and he could forgive anything in his mercy; meanwhile, prayer by the assembled Christians and restoration to his Church were near-guarantees of his pardon. The process gave ordinary Christians a role and importance beside their priests: they, too, could intercede with God, causing the sinners to beg abjectly for their assistance. It is disputed whether sinners were obliged to make a public confession, but one passage in Origen implies that they were, and two of Bishop Cyprian's letters assume such statements, once from Christians who had lapsed during persecution, once from Christian "virgins" who had lapsed in the bedroom. Personal sins became fascinating public knowledge. In the 450s, Pope Leo I considered public confession an "intolerable habit," evident among Italian bishops. In many churches. it seems, it had long been recognized, linking shame and group solidarity to healing through humiliation.'

These procedures were grim, and Christians could make use of them only once. It is clear from Tertullian that many Christians disregarded them altogether and preferred to keep their sins to themselves and God.' Others took them discreetly elsewhere. Martyrs, as we shall see, had the spiritual power to give a swift remission: around 200, while writing for rich Christians, Clement recommended that they should adopt holy individuals from among the poorer "brethren" who could pray and advise them as "friends of God." How could a civic notable be seen grovelling on a church path? The richer Christians could keep their own adviser in their household, and in Clement's view, the adviser need not even be a priest. Nonetheless, the idea of one, and only one, repentance was still generally accepted.

These gradations helped to compound the quality of a Christian church. If there was only one chance after baptism, was it not wiser to put off baptism and continue sinning meanwhile?" In the fourth century, the problem explicitly worried Church leaders, as Christians delayed full commitment until their deathbed. Delay was all the easier because of the humane Christian view that a novice or apprentice should not be denied early baptism if he seemed about to die. In the third century, the full scope of this manoeuvre does not seem to have been appreciated. Tertullian still saw the problem to lie in the opposite direction, in the habit of baptizing infants. "Why," he complained, "should the age of innocence hasten to the forgiveness of sins? If the burden of baptism is understood, its reception will be feared more than its delay.--- He could not have written ill this manner if the cunning postponement of baptism were widespread in Christian life. The practice of infant baptism was not without critics, but many churches accepted it and the hard facts of life encouraged them. As infant mortality was so miserably high, parents had a good claim that a baby should be baptized before its probable death: the point is made clearly in Latin inscriptions in the later Christian Empire.

Time, and this practice, added to the divisions between Christian believers. In the third century, Origen had some hard words for the snobbishness of Christians who had a long family history of the faith: they were worse if they could point to a bishop or dignitary in their ancestry." They felt superior to newly made converts, yet these people had renounced much and endured two or three years' teaching before baptism. Their religion was very much alive and perhaps, in their turn, they would look down on Christians who had merely been baptized as infants. Infants had made no choice, and perhaps the faith did matter less to many of them later.

These divisions in the churches' membership are the setting within which the overachievers belonged. There is always a place for aims and ideals which are difficult, and Christianity was particularly able to satisfy those who respond to a life of difficult struggle. In this chapter and the next two, they will loom large. Are they really Christians, we may wonder nowadays, recoiling from their self-mortification, their visionary tours of heaven and hell, their eager anticipation of martyrdom? Yet they could cite texts in the Gospels to support their ideals. The extreme forms of Overachievement were not approved by many of their contemporaries, but the values which underlay them were Christian, nonetheless. At first sight, they may seem to resemble ideals in pagan ethics: are they, then, proofs of a continuity between pagan and Christian ways of life?

These questions are easier to study because they lie on the surface of so much early Christian literature. Not only did the overachievers attract polemic and approval from fellow Christians: they helped to multiply the texts which supported their own practice. Their methods were very simple: where no authority existed, they invented texts and ascribed them to authors who never wrote them.

It is possible to put this practice in context and draw distinctions between its types. In the Hellenistic age, Jewish authors had already availed themselves of this literary form: the Christians were merely one more group in the field. Like their Jewish contemporaries, they lacked the critical concern for history and its sources which would have excluded these fabrications. There were a few doubters, but some very notable believers: despite its critics, wrote Tertullian, the Book of Enoch (composed c. 150 B.C.) must be genuine, as Enoch had lived in the days before the Flood. "

Narrative fictions tended to name no author, the "Acts of Peter" or the "Acts of Thomas," whereas bogus letters of discipline and "revelation" tended to claim a false authorship, the "Apocalypse of Peter" or the "Teaching of the Apostles. " In either case, the deceit had one primary aim: success. By withholding his name, the writer lent authority to texts which had none. The practice was not insignificant when the texts discussed points of religious conduct. It had begun promptly, characterizing several of the New Testament's epistles and, on one view, some or all of the Gospels themselves. However we try to justify the authors' practice, at bottom they used the same device: falsehood.

In the churches, the strict regard for authority and the growing respect for "orthodoxy" gave added point to this type of invention. It was also propelled by the interests of overachievers. These authors wished to support their behaviour by texts of a spurious authority, and if we look at the contents, we can see the conduct which they specially commended. Nobody wrote in this style on the surrender of riches or on support for the poor. Perfectionist texts described other qualities: virginity, visions and martyrdom. Despite initial appearances, each brings Christian practice into a contrast with pagan society. Each has remained central to Christian piety ever since: we can explore them one by one, beginning with Christian teaching on sex and its suppression.
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Old 02-06-2007, 08:02 PM   #85
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It seems to me that Robin Lane Fox says that Eusebius is precise with his details, some of which are wrong, and does not hesitate to make things up if necessary. He praises Eusebius for various things - rhetoric, polemic, Biblical exegesis, being able to move with the climate of the times. "Careful historiography" does not seem to be among Eusebius' many virtues. Or could you point out the exact language that supports your "interpretation"?
Forthcoming.

JG
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Old 02-07-2007, 07:34 AM   #86
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Hi Moderators et al,

In considering your judgement in this case, please note these parts of the quoted text:

The effects were visible in the very structure of each church community. If the years of preparation were one part of the faith's appeal, they also promoted divisions of merit and progress. By C. 300, there were novice "hearers" as well as the "catechumens," who were receiving instruction before baptism.'

It is disputed whether sinners were obliged to make a public confession, but one passage in Origen implies that they were, and two of Bishop Cyprian's letters assume such statements, once from Christians who had lapsed during persecution, once from Christian "virgins" who had lapsed in the bedroom. Personal sins became fascinating public knowledge. In the 450s, Pope Leo I considered public confession an "intolerable habit," evident among Italian bishops. In many churches. it seems, it had long been recognized, linking shame and group solidarity to healing through humiliation.'

In the fourth century, the problem explicitly worried Church leaders, as Christians delayed full commitment until their deathbed. Delay was all the easier because of the humane Christian view that a novice or apprentice should not be denied early baptism if he seemed about to die.

As infant mortality was so miserably high, parents had a good claim that a baby should be baptized before its probable death: the point is made clearly in Latin inscriptions in the later Christian Empire.

These four passages taken together indicate that the author is not talking only about Second and Third century Christians when he talks about the divisions of Christians within the Church and the problem of "overachievers."

I find no indication here that he is delimiting his observations to non-historical Christian writers.


More generally, I observe that any statement can be attacked on the grounds that it is selective and incomplete. If I say, "My name is Jay," it can be attacked for leaving out the last name and one can declare that the speaker is "selective" i.e. deceptive, i.e. hiding something, i.e. lying. If I say my name is Jay Raskin, one can attack it for being selective and leaving out the middle name. If I give all three names, one can attack the statement for being selective and leaving out an alias like Philosopher Jay. If I give names and aliases, one can attack the statement for leaving out descriptors, such as the Jay Raskin who wrote so and so. If I include name and a few descriptors, one can attack it for leaving out other descriptions, e.g., Why did you not mention that you were in Greece in '82, '83, '84, '87, '90, '92, '98, and '2005. Selective memory, perhaps Raskin?

The game of inquisitor may be fun for the person playing the part of the inquisitor, but it distracts from any chance of serious discussions and honestly, I have better things to do.

Sincerely,

Philosopher Jay




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Originally Posted by jgibson000 View Post
OK. Here (below) is the entirety of the passage from which Jay quoted in order to show that Lane Fox supports his (Jay's) claim that "Eusebius wrote in a time when fraud, deception and forgery was the norm".

But two things first.

1. As you read this, keep in mind the observations that I made to Jay that in appealing to Lane Fox to back up his claim, Jay has conveniently(?) ignored and conspicuously left out several facts, namely:
(a) that in the quote he gives us Lane-Fox is not speaking about the genre of Historia or the characteristics of the writings of historians and chroniclers such as Eusebius, but rather about writings produced by those who -- in contrast to those baptized in infancy-- had been baptized as adults and had renounced much in doing so -- and who believed in self mortifications and eagerly anticipated martyrdom (p. 339); but also

(b) that Lane Fox is speaking about the second and early third century, when persecution was a real specter hanging over the church, not the fourth, when Eusebius wrote, and after persecution has ceased.
and therefore that Lane Fox does not back up Jay's claims about the nature and character of the time of Eusebius or the conclusion that Jay draws from it that what Eusebius wrote was spurious and fraudulent and that what he himself engaged in great forgery and deception.

2. After you read this, tell me whether or not you think I have any grounds, let alone good ones, for my observations.

In order to help with this, that is to say, in order to show how Jay has employed selective quotation to adduce Lane Fox as an authority who provides warrants for his (Jay's) claim that "Eusebius wrote in a time when fraud, deception and forgery was the norm", I have highlighted the words of Lane Fox that Jay has given us.

Jeffrey

****
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Old 02-07-2007, 04:35 PM   #87
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Hi Moderators et al,

In considering your judgement in this case, please note these parts of the quoted text:

The effects were visible in the very structure of each church community. If the years of preparation were one part of the faith's appeal, they also promoted divisions of merit and progress. By C. 300, there were novice "hearers" as well as the "catechumens," who were receiving instruction before baptism.'

It is disputed whether sinners were obliged to make a public confession, but one passage in Origen implies that they were, and two of Bishop Cyprian's letters assume such statements, once from Christians who had lapsed during persecution, once from Christian "virgins" who had lapsed in the bedroom. Personal sins became fascinating public knowledge. In the 450s, Pope Leo I considered public confession an "intolerable habit," evident among Italian bishops. In many churches. it seems, it had long been recognized, linking shame and group solidarity to healing through humiliation.'

In the fourth century, the problem explicitly worried Church leaders, as Christians delayed full commitment until their deathbed. Delay was all the easier because of the humane Christian view that a novice or apprentice should not be denied early baptism if he seemed about to die.

As infant mortality was so miserably high, parents had a good claim that a baby should be baptized before its probable death: the point is made clearly in Latin inscriptions in the later Christian Empire.

These four passages taken together indicate that the author is not talking only about Second and Third century Christians when he talks about the divisions of Christians within the Church and the problem of "overachievers."
Several questions, Jay:

1 Are these passages meant to be taken together?

2. Even if they are, so what?

I never said that in Chapter 7 Lane Fox spoke only about second and third century Christians when he talks about divisions within the Church and the problem of the "overachievers". But that's not the issue, is it? The issue is what Lane Fox identifies as the period in which particular Christians --i.e., those he calls "overachievers" -- produced the particular literature he notes they they did.

Quote:
I find no indication here that he is delimiting his observations to non-historical Christian writers [sic].
Really? What then is the implication of Lane-Fox's notations that the writers who produced spurious works are those he labels "over achievers" and, more importantly, that the particular works they produced are specifically those in which the work's author's name is never given or are pseudonymous, and formally, are PRAXEIS, letters of discipline, or apocalypses, not "Chronicon" let alone Historia?

Quote:
More generally, I observe that any statement can be attacked on the grounds that it is selective and incomplete. If I say, "My name is Jay," it can be attacked for leaving out the last name and one can declare that the speaker is "selective" i.e. deceptive, i.e. hiding something, i.e. lying. If I say my name is Jay Raskin, one can attack it for being selective and leaving out the middle name. If I give all three names, one can attack the statement for being selective and leaving out an alias like Philosopher Jay. If I give names and aliases, one can attack the statement for leaving out descriptors, such as the Jay Raskin who wrote so and so. If I include name and a few descriptors, one can attack it for leaving out other descriptions, e.g., Why did you not mention that you were in Greece in '82, '83, '84, '87, '90, '92, '98, and '2005. Selective memory, perhaps Raskin?
The problem with this is that the analogy is all wrong.

What you've done in your appeal to Lane Fox is tantamount to an appeal to, say, what Gibbons has said, as justifying a claim on your part that Raskin was in Corinth for a full 13 year period, when what Gibbons actually said was that Raskin was only in Greece at specific times during that period.

Quote:
The game of inquisitor may be fun for the person playing the part of the inquisitor, but it distracts from any chance of serious discussions
Even assuming
1. that I am playing such a game; and

2. that you are not here engaged once again in characterizing questions rather than answering them; and therefore

3. that you are the one at whose feet must be laid any charge of creating distractions that forestall or prohibit "serious discussions,"
please address this claim of yours about the effects of "playing the inquisitor" to Socrates who, as you have to know, not only did nothing but play the "game of inquisitor", but thought (as did Plato) that it was certainly a necessary, indispensable, salutary, primary, and wholly legitimate means of promoting discussion.

You did take courses on Socrates in pursuit of your Ph.D. in Philosophy, didn't you, Jay? You were exposed to the ELENCHUS, were you not?

Are you telling me that all this was nothing more than a distraction from any chance of serious discussions"?

And hey, I thought you weren't speaking to me any more!

Jeffrey GIBSON
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Old 02-07-2007, 05:11 PM   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mountainman
Quote:
Originally Posted by JG
The first few sentences that I posted, and bolded:

The traditional forms of higher historiography
did not attract the Christians. They invented new ones.
These inventions are the most important contributions made
to historiography after the fifth century B.C. and before the
sixteenth century A.D.

Do you not think here that M is referring,
when he says "christians", to Eusebius?

Maybe. But not exclusively as you have claimed.
I am quite happy to argue that Momigliano lays the invention
of a new form of historiography squarely and exclusively at
the pen of Eusebius. In fact IMO the case is quite plain as
can be seen from the entire article.

As a totally separate and distinct issue, this thread by Jay
represents an essential questioning of the modus operandi
of Eusebius. Questioning his integrity as an historian.

You will see multiple references throughout this article by
Momigliano in which the integrity of Eusebius is called into
question at the highest level.

Jay Raskin's opinion that Eusebius forged the letter of the
Gallic "christians" is consistent with all references made in
this article by M with respect to Eusebian (lack of) integrity,
and to Eusebian invention of new forms
of historiography.
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Old 02-07-2007, 05:16 PM   #89
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I am quite happy to argue that Momigliano lays the invention
of a new form of historiography squarely and exclusively at
the pen of Eusebius. In fact IMO the case is quite plain as
can be seen from the entire article.
:banghead:

JG
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Old 02-07-2007, 05:25 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by jgibson000 View Post
OK. Here (below) is the entirety of the passage from which Jay quoted in order to show that Lane Fox supports his (Jay's) claim that "Eusebius wrote in a time when fraud, deception and forgery was the norm".

But two things first.

1. As you read this, keep in mind the observations that I made to Jay that in appealing to Lane Fox to back up his claim, Jay has conveniently(?) ignored and conspicuously left out several facts, namely:
(a) that in the quote he gives us Lane-Fox is not speaking about the genre of Historia or the characteristics of the writings of historians and chroniclers such as Eusebius, but rather about writings produced by those who -- in contrast to those baptized in infancy-- had been baptized as adults and had renounced much in doing so -- and who believed in self mortifications and eagerly anticipated martyrdom (p. 339); but also

(b) that Lane Fox is speaking about the second and early third century, when persecution was a real specter hanging over the church, not the fourth, when Eusebius wrote, and after persecution has ceased.
and therefore that Lane Fox does not back up Jay's claims about the nature and character of the time of Eusebius or the conclusion that Jay draws from it that what Eusebius wrote was spurious and fraudulent and that what he himself engaged in great forgery and deception.

2. After you read this, tell me whether or not you think I have any grounds, let alone good ones, for my observations.

In order to help with this, that is to say, in order to show how Jay has employed selective quotation to adduce Lane Fox as an authority who provides warrants for his (Jay's) claim that "Eusebius wrote in a time when fraud, deception and forgery was the norm", I have highlighted the words of Lane Fox that Jay has given us.

Jeffrey

****
I have a copy of Lane Fox in storage. I'll try to get to it. But from what you have reproduced, I don't think that you have a case.

Lane Fox says that the impetus for this invention of authority was the strict regard for authority and the growing respect for "orthodoxy" - not the fear of persecution. But for whatever reason, fraud, deception, and forgery were the norm. One could say that fraud, deception and forgery have been the norm through much of history, whenever ideological or political interests are at stake. If Eusebius had suddenly reversed this trend and produced only an accurate, scrupulously honest accound of history, that would be a miracle worth noting. I don't think that Lane Fox notes such a miracle, as he has already been quoted as saying that Eusebius made stuff up where necessary.

BTW - don't hurt your head banging it against the wall.
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