JEST2ASK

I do not now nor have I ever rejected the existence of the Philistines. How you made that conclusion I am at a loss.

OK please connect the dots for me, how does the existence of the Philistines and the fact that they worshiped a god called Dagon validate that a person called Samson existed and was a mighty warrior please show how / why I should not consider him much like Hercules. Spider man rescued Obama in a current comic the fact that real places, events and people are used in a story does not validate the story.


To show that the portions of the Hebrew scriptures detailing Samson and his exploits was 70% accurate I would think you need something more to present in terms of actual "scientific evidence" than the bare facts that The Phillistines existed and worshipped Dagon.

Remember you are the one who posted

IamJoseph

My bad, I misread your post. Apologies.


Your bad. Hercules and Spider man does not quite equate with a writings which is absolute historical in all its parts - in fact a chunk of history not available elsewhere [no alphabetical books even existed then].Of note is that the historicity of the Philistine, which you admit as undoutable historical - is exclusively derived from the writings you are questioning. Fair Go!




E.g.?

Yes, actually more than 70% - while nothing has even been disproven in the book of Judges, all has been either proven or evidenced [excepting only those FX miracles]. I also asked you to put up any writings which would equate in historicity - I ask this even ignoring that you are referring to a 3,200 year document!? 'Fair Go!' applies. :wave:

IamJoseph

Medevial Christianity's Blood Libels & The Protocols does fall into your 'TOTALLY INVENTED' category. From that pov it is really, really important: it is still pervasive in the islamic world - and the Christian world is TOTALLY silent of it - now that's another premise where a new word is also needed. Its the oppositte of THE TRUTH WILL SET YOU FREE, no? What would Jesus say! :banghead:

Littlejohn

"..THE TRUTH WILL SET YOU FREE, no? What would Jesus say! "

Yes, you are right. I did this saying my, and I'm more convinced than ever that this is the case, otherwise I would not have unnecessarily wasted more than 11 years of my life as a grueling search for the truth. Now that I reached the finish-line (at least of few absolutely marginal details ) I feel it was worth and valuable.

The question that now arises in front of me is how to implement that, in order bearing it to the attention of the general public, as the truth that I have "unearthed" is so devastating that would risk a real "crisis of rejection" by the overwhelming majority of the plagiarized faithful. For this I realized that without the support of the scholarly world, which one interests seriously to my truth, I don't go very far. To achieve this objective, to encourage scholars to interest about this, it is necessary that I accompany my reconstructions with as much data as possible. It is for this reason that I continue my research.

After several years of research, I began to realize the truth. That truth which is now well established. However, due to the fact that in the early years I still do not know this truth, having only a vague impression about it, I have not been able to get the most from the literature produced by the ancient fathers of the church: this thing that inspired me, now that the horizon became clearer, a review of the same search path. In this I was rewarded by chance, since what I discovered in Ireneus I would permit, in theory, of neglect the research and devote myself, "soul and body" to the composition of my book. But I still decided to give some time to my research, before stop it completely.

"..From that pov it is really, really important: it is still pervasive in the islamic world - and the Christian world is TOTALLY silent of it..."

I'm not aware of this. Could you briefly summarize what is practical Blood Libels and The Protocols? .. (maybe you mean "The Protocols of the Zion's Sages"?)


Littlejohn
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IamJoseph

Yes I do refer to the "The Protocols of the Zion's Sages", and the Blood Libel is of the same category of equivalent total forgery, namely medevial Europe accused the jews of drinking christian children's blood for passover [sic]. 100s of 1000s of innocent lives were taken, along with their properties, the children sent to christian convents. The blood libel forgery only broke when many brave christians began disputing this, citing that blood consumption was totally forbidden under the Hebrew laws - which the church was always aware of.

The point is, these falsehoods emerged from the church's own communities & congregations, and has long been abandoned and apoligised for. But there is an onus upon the church, the Pope and all christians, to loudly confront the muslim world which parades these as true history today - very blatantly and impudently. The Protocols is made into lavish TV serials and taught in schools and sermons by Islamic clerics, poisoning the minds of millions of muslims. And the Vatican is silent, as is the entire christian world.

Is this how the Gospels & Quran spread - no one bothered to check? - none cared? Where are the so-called freedom fighters in Islam ? - where are the so-called truth pursuing christians?

Today, we see a deathly 3-state in Palestine accepted by all christians and muslims as a 2-state; and Europe, who dumped the name Palestinians on the Jewish homeland as a derogotary term for 2000 years - now call those who antithise the term 'Palestinian' [muslims hated this name pre-1960 exactly as they do Zionism today] by this same name, using it as a political tool to lie. Today, Europe [The EU, backed by the Vatican], conspire at the UN and charges Israel of *OCCUPYING* 12% of her homeland - allocated to her in the Balfour Declaration, which was corrupted by the very term '2-state' in the creation of Jordan.

If the truth will set one free - by subsequence a lie will do the reverse. Those who judge Israel - should first judge themselves. There is a formidable 'AND' hovering here:

'I SHALL JUDGE ISRAEL - *AND* - THE NATIONS'

Littlejohn

By we, in Italy, one says: "you break an open door". Not only I convinced about what you say, but I do my your legitimate outrage and also add that the "cattoidolatri" (Catholic fundamentalists) should be ashamed when they try to minimize or, even worse, deny everything! What they have done with you, hebraic people, it had already done in the early centuries of their little-edifying story, when "counterfeiter fathers" (and for that pride of actual clergy!) accused heretics of using the blood of Catholic children for producing bread they consumed in their "agape". As you can see, things in the Catholic church has changed very little ...

What is even more absurd, is that the pagans of the time accused the Christians "Orthodox" (Catholics) of the same, unlikely custom and for this the "fathers" accused the pagans of evil and lies(sic!)

You are wrong to transfer your resentment towards the historical misdeeds of catholics, into current situation that the Israelites are living today in Palestine. I am convinced that the guilt and responsibility are in both conflicting parties, ie the Jews and Muslims. The very few israelite enlightened people who would have could really taken a path of peace, and put an end to this anachronistic as violent clashes, have been sidelined or even killed (see Rabin) by the extremist and reactionary right of political-religious deployment. All this shows that "the whole world is country," as one say by us, meaning that what we see in Italy (but in other Countries is not very different), where has always seen for a shameful and disgrace also "marriage" between the political right, reactionary and murderous, and the Catholic clergy, it is, under other "labels", even in Israel! We need an effort of good will to take note of the thing ....


Littlejohn

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IamJoseph

:constern01:

Please explain what Israel should do or should have done, which would be a path of peace? Explain why European Christianity, a historical witness of Israel's history - and the EU - should take the stand it does? What do you see which would please the Arab muslims in the region to effect peace?

JEST2ASK

1 - There are lots of non-biblical evidence for the Philistines (The Sea Peoples) and Dagon. Egyptian records and artifacts, Hittite artifacts, Greek references , Babylonian and Assyrian references etc etc. So we are in sharp disagreement regarding the Hebrew scriptures as the "exclusive" source for information about these people, their dieties etc.

2 - Hercules & Samson (IMO ) is a good compairsion (Spiderman not so much . Stories regarding the Greek gods and related heroes were just as much important parts of their religious mythology (IMO).

3 - I am sure we differ greatly regarding the orgin / nature of the Hebrew scriptures. IMO long before any parts were ever compilied in written form much of the stories existed as legends and myths in oral history. It will take more that just mention of real places before I see the Samson stories as having more historical important than as a source for hints and clues regarding that period. Were there elements of fact interwoven into the story yes are the stories 70% factual highly unlikely (IMO).

4 - One last point, I do believe there may or not be an actual historical person (or persons) behind the Samson figure just like there could have been historical basis for Robin Hood or King Arthur but that is not the point. The point is we currently have insufficent scientific and unbiased evidences, rendering this historicity.


Did the Phillistines exist yes for a very long stretch of time. Did they engage in warfare with the existing cannanite peoples (including those called Jews / Hebrews / Israelites) yes again for very long stretch of time. Did they worship a diety called (Dagon) yes along with many others. Do these facts mean the stories of Samson are 70% accurate NO well at least IMO.


The Hebrew bible (scriptures) is a valuable , fascinating document that may very well be unique but I do not hold it with such high regard as you. While you can state for example regarding the book of Judges nothing has been disproven, I can state little other the the barest mundane facts have been proven (or have support outside its' pages).

This is much longer and certainly more involved than I intended. It has been a pleasure to interact with you. However as this thread is now venturing into areas I have little interest I will return to lurker mode. :wave:

IamJoseph

You will see that the Hebrew depictions are earlier - and also more contemporary and historical [dates, places, etc]. However, the later Ramesey III egyptian depictions only affirm and evidence the Hebrew as being authentic. Re the Greeks - these were kin of the philistines, and there is no evidence the greek writings predate the Hebrew.
The reference to spiderman is hardly legitimate and says much of your position of an unbiased, honest measure of history.

That's a distorted statement. While factors such as forbiddence of murder, stealing, adultary were of course prevailent [the Hebrew bible emerged late on the scene], there is nowhere any history of monotheism and creationism of the Hebrew bible mode anywhere. Further, none of the wrong laws which preceded the Hebrew bible are included: one can copy Einstein's MC2 - but how many can correct it? The world's institutions turn exclusively on the laws embedded in the Hebrew bible - not a single one comes from elsewhere: name one? So it is not about my opinion, but facts on the table. Not a single figure in the Hebrew bible has been proven as a myth: please name one? The most recent proven figures are David and Solomon - also deemed as myth 15 years ago - and these are almost 3000 year old figures; all the historically depicted prophetic figures are evidenced, with cross nation back-up.



What would you see as required facts, and which part of the book of Judges [Samson story] do you class as myths, and why so? Your own references clearly identifies the deity Dagon as factual according to other writings, while the book of judges gives new and different stats of the Philistnes. The only indisputable myth concerns the Arab muslims adopting this name - yes/no?

Now you are contrading yourself: the figures of K. Arthur & R. Hood are absolute myths, yet to sanction these and compare them with Samson - as if equivalent evidence applies?




I would agree with your opinion only if all those questions were concluded in the negative. That they are vested in the positive is adequate proof of veracity, regardess of one's opinion.

Compared to which other document? One must have a reference point for saying yes or no.

When one regards the anciency of its settings, and in comparison to any other document of the same space-time, I would disagree with your conclusion.

Wave. Thanks.

bacht

Hello IaJ. Let me see if I understand you:

You claim that the New Testament is basically "cherished lies" while the Old Testament is mostly true. Is this your argument?

While I'm skeptical about the Jesus stories, I'm only slightly less skeptical about the historical value of the Hebrew scriptures, which cover a millenium of Near Eastern history and range geographically from Egypt to Persia (with late references to the Greeks). That's a lot of storytelling to confirm. afaik there are still lots of gaps in the external material evidence for many parts of the Tanakh (?)