Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Toto · 06-30-2008, 06:43 PM

There is (allegedly) a historical Saint Nick, but he lived in Turkey in the 4th century and was a Christian bishop. You would never guess that from the surviving manuscript from Dr. Moore.

aa5874 · 06-30-2008, 06:56 PM

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Originally Posted by jjramsey

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Originally Posted by mens_sana

The "razor" is not a strait jacket. Neither is it a Procrustean bed. "It was all a myth" is the simplest answer, but it is not a comprehensive answer. History, human psychology, 1st century Hellenistic culture, and power politics don't make for simple answers.

More to the point, the same logic that says that "JESUS WAS FICTION BELIEVED TRUE" is the most economical explanation because it is only five words also would lead to the conclusion that "GOD DID IT" is an even more economical explanation because it is shorter still.

Similarly, "It was all a myth" is only simple until viewed closely. MJers have had to come up with speculation as to why "brother of the Lord" doesn't mean what it appears to mean, for example.

You know that the term "GOD DID IT" is "FICTION BELIEVED TRUE."

karlmarx · 06-30-2008, 07:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

There is (allegedly) a historical Saint Nick, but he lived in Turkey in the 4th century and was a Christian bishop. You would never guess that from the surviving manuscript from Dr. Moore.

Which raises another question: at what point can it be accepted that a character inspired by a historical figure is fictitious? Was Dr Moore even aware of the turkish St Nick? Did he even need to base his Santa on anything related to the turkish St Nick? If he didn't, then by what stretch of the imagination was Dr Moore writing about St Nick?

Most works of fiction are based on the author's real life experience. This would give most works of fiction a "historical root". Orwell, for instance, took some inspiration for 1984 from his experiences at the BBC. Is the BBC the "historical" Ingsoc Party? What exactly would be the purpose of arguing this, if we are not able to learn anything about the real BBC by reading 1984?

Toto · 06-30-2008, 07:17 PM

Good question. The real Saint Nick is supposed to have started the legends that resulted in the fat guy in a red suit driving his reindeer across the sky, but the legendary process stopped off in Scandinavia to pick up some elements and then incorporated American cultural elements.

With the historical Jesus, the real question is whether Christianity started with a charismatic individual or with a mythical savior. Many of those who think that Christianity started with a historical charismatic individual still admit that you can't learn much if anything about his historical nature from the surviving evidence.

patcleaver · 06-30-2008, 07:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

There is (allegedly) a historical Saint Nick, but he lived in Turkey in the 4th century and was a Christian bishop. You would never guess that from the surviving manuscript from Dr. Moore.

This brings up another issue. Are there parallels between the St. Nick who allegedly lived in Turkey in the 4th century and the St. Nick written about by Dr. Moore in 1860. There are lots of differences and lots of similarities.

The proper procedure is as follows. If the story of St Nick of Turkey was available to Dr. Moore in 1860, then you should presume that Dr. Moore incorporated the similarities into his story. It is far more likely that Dr. Moore selectively incorporated some know ideas and discarded other known ideas, than it is that he re-invented the known similarities himself.

aa5874 · 06-30-2008, 07:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by patcleaver

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

There is (allegedly) a historical Saint Nick, but he lived in Turkey in the 4th century and was a Christian bishop. You would never guess that from the surviving manuscript from Dr. Moore.

This brings up another issue. Are there parallels between the St. Nick who allegedly lived in Turkey in the 4th century and the St. Nick written about by Dr. Moore in 1860. There are lots of differences and lots of similarities.

The proper procedure is as follows. If the story of St Nick of Turkey was available to Dr. Moore in 1860, then you should presume that Dr. Moore incorporated the similarities into his story. It is far more likely that Dr. Moore selectively incorporated some know ideas and discarded other known ideas, than it is that he re-invented the known similarities himself.

But, don't you see another problem with the St. Nick of the 4th century. He is alleged to have lived. So even if there are similarities with Dr. Moore's, we will just be going aroud in cores.

My solution is to get a copy of Dr. Moore's book about Santa and look for this disclaimer:

This book is a work of fiction. Names characters, characters, places and incidents are products of the author's imagination or are used fictitiously. Any resemblance to actual events or locales or persons living or dead is entirely coincidental.

The unicorn has a historical core you know, it is really a horse? a rhino? whatever?

patcleaver · 07-01-2008, 10:44 AM

If you take any fictional book full of magic and extremely improbable coincidences that are obviously fiction, such as the Harry Potter books, and you subtract out the magic and improbabilities, then you will be left with a core of fictional events that are not obviously fiction. You have simply converted a fantastic fictional tail into a fictional tail that is not fantastic. You still have no way of knowing what is true and what is false in the remaining fictional core.

Historical Jesus believers must think that Hermione Granger really convinced her parents to move to Australia until the war between good and evil was over.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

But, don't you see another problem with the St. Nick of the 4th century. He is alleged to have lived. So even if there are similarities with Dr. Moore's, we will just be going around in cores.

Yes, it is very unlikely that there was an historical Saint Nicholas of the 4th century either.

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It is not reassuring that one of the first references to the saint, a laudatory speech by patriarch Proclus of Constantinople in 440, already includes subject matter that clearly belongs to the realm of legend. The first hagiography of the bishop of Myra, written by an otherwise unknown Michael the Archimandrite, can be dated to c.700, about three and a half centuries after the end of the saint's earthly existence.
...

But let's first take a look at the "Life, Works, and Miracles of our Holy Father Nicholas, Archbishop of Myra in Lycia". It is a brief text that can easily be printed on some twelve pages. After some introductory remarks, Michael tells us that Nicholas was born in Patara (§3) and lived exemplary (§8). When he was at an age to behave irresponsibly, he remained remarkably chaste (§4). As an infant, he had already shown his holiness because he had refused his mother's breast on Friday, the day on which Christ had been crucified (§5). Nicholas' parents died when he was still young, and the young man started to give away everything he inherited (§9).

In §§10-17, we read a famous story. Nicholas hears about an impoverished man who is unable to offer a dowry to the men who will marry his three daughters. "They were so poor," Michael writes, "that no man of their order wanted them as his wife. Not even men of lower rank thought about marrying them. Therefore, their father thought about ordering them to work in a brothel, so that he and the family would have some income."

Fortunately, Nicholas intervenes. During the night, he throws a purse through one of the windows of the house of the poor people. Now, the first daughter has a dowry, can leave home, and marry. This repeats itself, and then it's the last girl's turn. "There was Nicholas again," writes Michael, who adds—not entirely to the point—that the young man, "venerated the Trinity and was the servant of one particular Person of the Holy Triad, our true Lord Christ."

In spite of this, not everything goes according to Nicholas' plan. The generous giver is caught in the act by the father, who expresses his gratitude. The modest saint makes the poor man promise that he will never tell what has happened. (Michael fails to explain how, if the father remained silent, the story became so well-known.)

Liberated from his worldly possessions, Nicholas is made bishop of nearby Myra, where he distinguishes himself by destroying the temple of Artemis (§29). In another story, we learn how three generals, who have, although innocent, been jailed, are released when the saint appears to the responsible officials in Constantinople, although he is at the same time seen in his study in Myra. A variant on this story deals with three men who have been condemned to death but are saved by a timely intervention of the good bishop. Repeatedly, Nicholas saved sailors (§§34-36 and §§45-48). After a famine has miraculously been terminated (§§37-39), the saint dies.

The credibility of these stories is not strengthened by the fact that there are many parallels in other, often non-Christian, sources from Asia Minor. In the third century CE, the Greek author Philostratus wrote a vie romancée of the charismatic Pythagorean philosopher Apollonius, who was born in Tyana, which is not terribly far from Myra. This sage also remains chaste (Life of Apollonius, §1.13; unique in paganism) and gives away all his possessions (idem), enables an impoverished man to give a dowry to his daughters (§6.39) and intervenes in a trial and saves someone who is condemned to death (§5.24). He also has the power of bilocation (§8.10).
...

In Michael's hagiography, it is often stated that Nicholas venerated the Trinity and was the servant of one particular Person of the Holy Triad, the Lord Christ. It is no coincidence that he offered dowries to three young women, freed three generals, and saved three people who were condemned to death. (In a later legend, he saved three boys.)

-- Jona Lendering (Dutch historian), Saint Nicholas, Sinterklaas, Santa Claus, http://www.livius.org/ne-nn/nicholas..._of_myra1.html

St. Methodius, patriarch of Constantinople towards the middle of the ninth century, wrote The Life of Saint Nicholas. It is full of miracle stories and incredible improbabilities. Although Nicholas is not in the early version of the list of Bishops who attended the Counsel of Nicea, in Methodius' story, when Bishop Arius explains his views, the outraged Nicholas got up, crossed the room, and slapped Arius across the face.

Quote:

Many legends and miracles are attributed to him:
When he was an infant, his mother only nursed him on Wednesdays and Fridays; he fasted the remaining days.
He halted a storm at sea in order to save three drowning sailors.
During his lifetime, he adored children and often threw gifts anonymously into the windows of their homes.
His father left him a fortune which he used to help poor children.
He grabbed the sword of an executioner to save the life of a political prisoner.
He brought back to life several children who had been killed.

Some religious historians and experts in folklore believe that there is no valid evidence to indicate that St. Nicholas ever existed as a human. In fact, there are quite a few indicators that his life story was simply recycled from those of Pagan gods. Many other ancient Pagan gods and goddesses were similarly Christianized in the early centuries of the Church. His legends seems to have been mainly created out of myths attributed to the Greek God Poseidon, the Roman God Neptune, and the Teutonic God Hold Nickar. "In the popular imagination [of many Russians] he became the heir of Mikoula, the god of harvest, 'who will replace God, when God becomes too old.' " 8

When the church created the persona of St. Nicholas, they adopted Poseidon's title "the Sailor." They seem to have picked up his last name from Nickar. Various temples of Poseidon became shrines of St. Nicholas. 1 "In medieval England... in tiny sea ports we find the typical little chapel built on an eminence and looking out to sea." 8 St. Nicholas also adopted some of the qualities of "The Grandmother" or Befana from Italy. She was said to have filled children's stockings with gifts. Her shrine at Bari was also converted into a shrine to St. Nicholas.
http://www.religioustolerance.org/santa1.htm

Nicholas is the name of an ancient sea monster in France. The story of Saint Nicholas of Myra ending a storm to save three sailors is just a retelling of the pagan story of the sea god Poseidon/Neptune/(Hold Nickar), and surely they really existed right.

.

mens_sana · 07-01-2008, 09:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by karlmarx

This isn't what MJers are doing, however - the MJ hypothesis does not call for supernatural explanations, nor otherworldly assumptions. It is, in fact, fairly mundane.

Hmmmm, the combination of Jungian archetypes with the Campbell/Neumann/Eliade approach has always seemed a bit on the "supernatural" side to me . . . And it is hardly "mundane." My slant is a bit more like Ehrman's — an HJ with no supernatural explanations or otherworldly assumptions.

karlmarx · 07-01-2008, 11:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by patcleaver

If you take any fictional book full of magic and extremely improbable coincidences that are obviously fiction, such as the Harry Potter books, and you subtract out the magic and improbabilities, then you will be left with a core of fictional events that are not obviously fiction. You have simply converted a fantastic fictional tail into a fictional tail that is not fantastic. You still have no way of knowing what is true and what is false in the remaining fictional core.

Historical Jesus believers must think that Hermione Granger really convinced her parents to move to Australia until the war between good and evil was over.

This methodology is similar to that used by those who believe in the "God of the gaps". Just like anything that can't be explained by the science of the day MUST be due to God, anything in the NT that isn't sheer fantasy or contrary to the archaeology of the day MUST be the "historical core".

Doug Shaver · 07-02-2008, 01:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by karlmarx

This methodology is similar to that used by those who believe in the "God of the gaps". Just like anything that can't be explained by the science of the day MUST be due to God, anything in the NT that isn't sheer fantasy or contrary to the archaeology of the day MUST be the "historical core".

I like that. I like it a lot.

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06-30-2008, 06:43 PM	#61
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	There is (allegedly) a historical Saint Nick, but he lived in Turkey in the 4th century and was a Christian bishop. You would never guess that from the surviving manuscript from Dr. Moore.

06-30-2008, 07:17 PM	#64
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Good question. The real Saint Nick is supposed to have started the legends that resulted in the fat guy in a red suit driving his reindeer across the sky, but the legendary process stopped off in Scandinavia to pick up some elements and then incorporated American cultural elements. With the historical Jesus, the real question is whether Christianity started with a charismatic individual or with a mythical savior. Many of those who think that Christianity started with a historical charismatic individual still admit that you can't learn much if anything about his historical nature from the surviving evidence.

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