gstafleu

An immortal hero who has undergone apotheosis but is now not a god... subtle distinction.

The question in the OP was:
Dionysus is mentioned as an example, but the question is not limited to him. The gods we are looking for need to have two attributes: "savior" and "born of a woman." Leaving the savior bit aside for now, the first question is: what does "born of a woman" mean. You have supplied an exactingly narrow implicit definition: the god must have "have come to full term inside, and then delivered from, as ordinary human beings are delivered from, the womb of a human woman through her vagina." The OP doesn't mention any of this. A wider definition, where the god was conceived by the woman and carried in her womb for some time, can not be a priori ruled out. I'm not saying your definition is wrong, but you'll have to supply reasons why we should go for the narrow definition rather than the wide one.

Gerard Stafleu

Chris Weimer

You're taking it way out of context. But what's new? Hell, I might as well invent a new dying-and-rising savior god today, and that, according to you, would be plenty suffucuent for this discussion.

gstafleu

This brings us back again to: what does "born of a woman" mean? Paul is making an analogy between something located in the real world, and something located in the "Jesus" world. Could he just be saying that his analogy is valid because Jesus had human form? In other words, does Paul's "born of a woman" mean the same as "like a son of man"? If so we can shelve the vagina monologues.

Gerard Stafleu

gstafleu

So, your "contributions" to this discussion so far have been:

- Claiming that certain gods are not "savior" gods, without, despite repeated requests, providing any reasoning for this. Maybe you are relying on mind reading?

- Stating that I'm taking things out of a context that wasn't supplied anywhere in the OP--more mind reading required?

- Slipping in a snide ad hominem ("But what's new?")

- Ending your latest post with a rather obvious straw man--going through fallacies 101 again?

Gerard Stafleu

jgibson000

But an important one. And Heracles was not naturally immortal as you seem to be suggesting in your expression "immortal hero".

Because the Greek idea of "to be born", let alone to be "born of a woman" means what I stipulated it does, and does not mean "conceived and carried in a woman's womb" but not delivered through the "mother's" vagina.

As is witnessed by Diodorus Siculus and his use of the verb εκτιτρωσκω to describe the nature of Dionysus' exit from Semele, as well as the epithet of "God born" (not "God conceived") that is applied to Dionysus in the Homeric Hymns and the way Dionysus speaks of his "birth" in Bakchae 88-99, Greeks, and especially Greeks in the 1st century BCE-CE (witness the dates of DS), did not think that sort of "exit" Dionysus made from Semele was or could be thought of an actual "birth", let alone a being "born of a woman". See too 1 Cor 15:8 and Paul's use of the cognate adjective to describe his "birth".

As to what "born of a woman" means, may I suggest you have a look at its parallel (in the plural) in Matt. 11:11//Lk. 7:28, its use in Herodotus Hist 1.61.5; Dionysius Scytobracion Fragmenta 1a,32,F Historia Alexandri Recensio Gamma 13.5; and at its Hebrew equivalent in Jb. 14:1; 15:14; 25:4; 1QH 13:14; 1 QS 11:21, to see?

Jeffrey Gibson

gstafleu

I found the easy ones.

Mat 11:11 / Luk 7:28
I tell you the truth: Among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist; yet he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

Herodotus:
...therefore not desiring that children should be born to him
from his newly-married wife, he had commerce with her not in the
accustomed manner.

Job 14: 1 "Man born of woman
is of few days and full of trouble.

15:14 "What is man, that he could be pure,
or one born of woman, that he could be righteous?

So what does this show? That, indeed, there is a meaning of "born of a woman" that signifies the normal birth process. It signifies that so well that in the examples from Mat/Luk and Job it might as well be replaced by "human being," or "son of man" if you like. Of course in Job we may have the additional connotation of being born in sin, harking back to Eve's serpentine escapade.

How does that help us with gods that are born from woman? If "born from a woman" indicates, as in the examples above, a normal human being, do then only gods count who started as a human being?

What are examples of gods that are born of woman, never mind if they are savior gods or if they have links to Christianity? So far, we have the following list:

Dionysios--maybe, birth was not standard, was certainly a god.

Heracles--standard birth, depends on your definition of "god."

Psyche--Same as Heracles.

Krishna--Pretty good candidate, neither birth nor godhood seem in doubt.

Now, does Jesus qualify? Probably, although if the birth has to be completely standard one can make the point that the conception, rather closely related to the process, also has to be completely standard, which in Jesus' case it wasn't. Was Jesus a god? Well, he was the son of God and the human woman Maria. Heracles was the son of the Greek God (Zeus) and the human woman Alcmene. You have argued that Heracles is not a god. Fine, but goose-gander wise that then also throws doubt on Jesus. Plus, if we assume Christianity is monotheistic, the only way in which Jesus can be a god is via the trinity, otherwise the position is already taken. And the attestation for the trinity in the NT is rather poor, it seems to be a later development as of about Tertullian.

I suspect we have the following situation. It is possible to define the concepts "born from woman" and "god" such that no entity qualifies. It is also possible to define them more widely, in which case the list I gave, or part thereof, qualifies. Finally it is no doubt also possible to define things such that only Jesus qualifies. But that is something only apologists would do, isn't it?

Gerard Stafleu

jakejonesiv

In the OT, both God and the Angel of the Lord (we know
from Justin Martyr that Christians believed the AoL
was named Jesus) were imagined to have appeared on
earth, in history, to characters such as Abraham that
were believed to be historical. Sometimes they were
imagined to have appeared in a form that revealed
their alleged supernatural nature. Sometimes they
appeared in forms that were indistinguishable (for the
characters in the story) from a human being.

The appearances of Jesus need be no less imaginary
than the OT Theophanies of the Lord!

Jake Jones IV

jakejonesiv

Adoption, not natural descent. Did you miss that? And you are the one that quit reading too quickly. "Historical Jesus" did not enter into believers hearts crying "Abba". Only a spirit can do that, allegedly. The Son is a Spirit.

Jake Jones IV

jakejonesiv

Yes, just as the Virgin Mary was subsequently partially deified.

And can anyone tell me just how the Virgin Mary was supposed to have gotten pregnant?

Jake Jones IV

Chili

"Abba" is a non rational murmur and therefore a spiritual uttering. The son is not born yet.