outhouse

not one gospel EVER states jesus was a woodworker :constern02:

[facepalm]



had he been a woodoworker, it would have stated tekton of wood, or tekton of stone for skilled craftsmen in a specific trade.

But this was never used. Tekton by itself is nothing more then a handworker and in this case it siginifies a peasant migrant poverty stricken renter who used his hands to earn a living doing odd jobs.



the fact he lived in Nazareth also goes with a plain old tekton as of that time, Nazareth was little more then a few really rough primitive stone houses without windows.

had he been employed in the glorious Sepphoris theres a good chance he would be labeled as a tekton of stone, but at this point theres no telling if he was employed there or not.

Jane H

Well, I agree up to a point. However the term tekton doesn't have a precise translation. Certainly a tekton would have done basic carpentry work- building and repairing wooden structures or their structural parts. However the term can be applied to any worker who plied his trade “with a hard material that retains its hardness throughout the operation e.g. wood and stone or even horn or ivory” (Richard Batey “Is Not This the Carpenter” NTS 30 1984). Justin Martyr claims Jesus made “ploughs and yokes”; although probably inference, it does indicate possible meanings of tekton.

More specifically, the term was often applied to a woodworker, which is likely how Mark and Matthew mean it, for the following reasons:

(1) That is the ordinary meaning in classical Greek
(2) Translations in Syriac, Coptic and other ancient versions of the Gospels translate tekton with “woodworker” meaning words
(3) The word was understood by the Greek Fathers in this way (Paul Hanly Furfey “Christ as Tekton” CBQ 17 1955)

Now does the Aramaic word “naggara” lie behind tekton? That has a range of meanings from carpenter to artisan and artist.

In summary, the word meant a broad range of technical skills, with a main core of carpentry (wooden beams, furniture, floors), supplemented by other occasional tasks. On the whole, “woodworker” would seem a perfectly good rendering of tekton.


Perhaps I might point out that the translation you suggest would be an even stronger version of the point I'm making to the OP. The change is due to Mk/Lk not wanting to have Jesus attached to a derisive description.


Bizarrely, I am typing in my outhouse. Is the location of your computer the origin of your username?

Toto

Jane H: that is bizarre. I strongly suspect that "outhouse" has a different connotation on your side of the Atlantic. Check out outhouse

outhouse

im sorry you dont understand the word "tekton" fully


im using the same method as Marvin Meyers, and Johnathon Green.

And you are what??

outhouse

I think the fumes have had some kind of effect.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_Jesus







View of Nazareth

Jesus is described in Mark as a τεκτων (tekton)[57] and in Matthew as the son of a tekton.[58] Like most people at the time, he presumably was trained by his parent in the family trade. Tekton has been traditionally translated into English as "carpenter", but is a rather general word (from the same root as "technical" and "technology", derived from Greek) that at the time could cover makers of objects in various materials, and builders, from tent makers to stonemasons.

outhouse

lets put it in context for those without the proper knowledge

http://serene-musings.blogspot.com/2...carpenter.html

Grog

Technically, "peasant migrant" is a contradiction. "Peasant" is usually a tenant-farmer, not a migrant agricultural worker, as you noted a "renter" sometimes a small-time subsistence landowner. A better term for someone who "uses their hands to earn a living doing odd jobs" is an artisan. As I've pointed out in past threads, "peasants" and "artisans" do not share the same economic interests (necessarily), though they are often conflated in Jesus studies. While as you say, Jesus is referred to as an artisan in the Gospels, many HJ theories hold that he was a peasant. Usually, this is to explain how Jesus crossed Rome, the peasant class being the more likely rebellious class due to the direct and explicit tension between owning the land, working the land, and giving up the fruits of the labor to the landowner. There are different class interests involved. It is somewhat gratuitous for historicists to propose a peasant Jesus, in my opinion.

outhouse

except people were not really settled into nazareth for any real period of time. Its barely a small poverty stricken stone hut village in the first century at best. Theres also known knowledge that at that time there was some people who had lost everything and migrated there and tekton was a common name given to these misplaced people with no real trade.

There was no other social class in Nazareth then poor and poverty stricken. Most jews in Galilee were peasants.

Many in Galilee were also part of the zealots after the tax war in Galilee while jesus was a child.




Theres no debate he was not a carpenter as there was not much wood. There were not many home owners either.



I think many people dont have a clue how bad the romans oppressed jews in Galilee back then. Jesus probably ate better traveling from town to town for dinner scraps after healing and preaching then he did as a hand worker doing odd jobs.



You need to remember, allthough we have roman authors building a positive light for romans/gentiles the scripture is full of money talk and taxation.

jesus died for money, he wasnt tipping over grain tables, or hauled off for preaching to be the king.


he starts a riot dealing with money after being accused of not paying taxes shortyly before that, and he tells his apostles to give up everything and follow him including their beggar bowls showing you his own friends [fishermen] were also lower then peasants.

Toto

You have quoted a Christian blogger with an interesting twist, but hardly the ultimate authority of the question.

You need to take several things into account:

tekton at various times might refer to a builder or an architect. Odysseus was referred to as a tekton at one point in the Odyssey, in reference to his superior carpentry skills in building a boat.

Geza Vermes in Jesus the Jew (or via: amazon.co.uk) describes an Aramaic use of the term carpenter/craftsman (naggar) to metaphorically describe a 'scholar' or 'learned man'. (You never read about Jesus doing manual labor, but you do see a lot of word play in the gospels.)

The idea that an illiterate, rough tradesman would develop the public speaking, leadership, and rhetorical skills that Jesus shows in the gospels is just a fictional element. There's no point in trying to find any actual history behind it.

outhouse

LOL ya only if we completely ignore the cultural anthropology in Galillee in the first century.


who need leadership??? to travel with a a few fishermen after hanging out with some dude wearing a camel hair tunic living outdoors eating bugs???

traveling around healing demons and such for dinner scraps



I think you have painted the wrong picture for your HJ


Vermes is out of date and just one later opinion. I suggested to you Green and Meyers