Diogenes the Cynic

Could you explain this to me? What do you mean by "recognizably human" and why should we give a shit if we aren't?

TomboyMom

But he does intervene. Specifically, he intervenes to order his followers to commit genocide and be extra sure not to spare the infants, no matter how young.
What about when, as is so often the case, the hate group is citing God's authority as the source of their venom?

Just as we would if God did not exist.

Diogenes the Cynic

[QUOTE=Gamera]The "free will" argument doesn't work because an omniscient creator could simply choose to create only people would choose good. Also, what's so damn important about free will? I don't even think there is such a thing. Free will is a myth, in my opinion.

RUmike

Well you're really gonna hate heaven then!

RUmike

Exactly. Apparently it isn't all that important to God either. Remember that he hardened Pharoah's heart, effectively taking away Pharoah's free will. And didn't Paul argue in a similar fashion that God hardened the hearts of all the Jews who didn't accept Christ?

Sheshbazzar

The Scriptures indicate that He intervened dramatically some thousands of years ago, that intervention is not -on a daily basis- detectable today. (or we wouldn't be in this debate)
No difference to me, as I do not subscribe to the ideas of hate groups of either ilk. But my question was of what would be the "good" thing for YHWH to do with ANY such group or individual, with me presenting that the good thing would be to simply let them live, and give them the time and the opportunity to reform.

Problem with that is, whether or not any "gawd" exists, those without compassion, are not inclined to make the world a better place for their neighbors, in fact some of these have just enough "knowledge", to consider helping out the suffering, as pissing into the wind, thus excusing themselves from any obligation or effort to assist in humanitarian efforts.

Gamera

Actually Paul tells us the value of the Hebrew Scriptures, which is not some vague holiness, but rather practical spiritual guidance.

2 Timothy 3:16 - All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness.

I think it clear that the HS were intended to be utterly transformed by the NT, and their meanings spiritualized. I base this on how Jesus and Paul deal with the HS, since they apply exegetical interpretation to give a meaning not evident in the original texts, but claimed to be there waiting to be discovered in light of the gospel. The project of historical Christianity, at least through the middle ages, became just that, as mediaeval clerics undertook the glossing of the OT in light of the NT.

In light of this, the OT Yahew is transformed and understood as a God of superstitious, violent people who understood nothing about the spiritual matters God wanted to teach them, which was the purpose of the historical sojourn God put Israel upon. It's a tendentious history, but a coherent one

Gamera

Type #3 is the Type #1 historicized: God working with violent, barbaric people to take them on the road to love and empathy. It's an ugly trip, but it had to start somewhere.

Diogenes the Cynic

He's teaching them love and empathy by ordering them to engage in indiscriminate slaughter and rape?

Gamera

Yeah, unpleasant though it is, they were barbaric people who wouldn't believe in a God that didn't give them barbaric victories in war. So God played the game, let them do what they would do anyway, until he had separated them from the rest of the world, and slowly transformed their ethics to empathy and love. Like I say, an ugly trip. Glad I didn't have to make it, but instead got the end product -- the gospel of Jesus, which requires us not only to love our neighbors, but our enemies. Don't you find it interesting that this ethic exists in Christianity (and nowhere else) and purports to derive from the OT.