Sven

Little: I really applause your knowledge of the Silmarillion (I read it three times, but don't remember this many details). And I start to agree that posts like your are the only possible answer to Salieri's rants. It's sad, but what can be do?

Haener

In the case of Haener, you have NO alternative other than to be for or against him. You either fight FOR his words, or fight AGAINST his words REGARLDESS OF WHY you fight for or against them. If you think there are other alternatives to Haener then you are fighting AGAINST his words that he is the only way to Haener-heaven, are you not? Even if you think they were made up or are lies, you are STILL fighting AGAINST them! You can call it anything you want, but again, "he who is not for me is against me." Sorry but you guys CANNOT get out of this one unless you become illogical.

Jedi Mind Trick

Thanks,
I have read the Silmarillion and I am a Tolkien geek, I also have a little help from an excellent online resource.

http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm

If he will rant about Yahweh/Jesus then we can rant about Iluvatar, IPU and others.

Salieri

First off, we have to have some WORDS of Iluvatar to even form an opinion on!!!! when i read them, I will discern whether I think they are lies or are the truth. If i have not read his words then I cannot form an opinion. Jesus is talking about either being ruled by Satan or the Holy Spirit. if one isn't ruled by the HS, then he understands the things of the devil which are worldly thing like; envy, greed, lust, sloth, pride, anger, and gluttony. He then will be FOR things that do not come from God. This is why Jesus asks us to preach the gospel to all nations. People will not realize that they are for the devil and against God until they hear God's word. And THAT is when they will be judged accordingly. Jesus said; "The servant who KNOWS his master's will and does not get ready for him or do what he says will be beaten with many blows. But the servant who does NOT know his master's will will be beaten with few blows."

Jedi Mind Trick

Can't you read Sal?
We reference the Silmarillion, the bible of middle earth.

Sven

You have not even read the words of Iluvatar and nevertheless are against him?

So you agree that there are further options than only being for or against someone?

Someone wrote that he talked about this. So what?

You still base you argument on a book written 2000 years ago by (mostly) ignorant goat herders. Why should be take it serious?

Someone wrote that Jesus asked for this. So what?

What do you make out of the fact that many atheists here have been theists for years or even decades?

Someone wrote that he said this. So what?

How about answering this:

Salieri

People who have never heard of God or Jesus do not KNOW they are doing things against Him, but nevertheless, they still are. They cannot do things God's way until they even KNOW what God says! They CANNOT worship God if they've never heard of Him, much less even KNOW Him. Therefore, their beliefs CANNOT be FOR God and HAVE to be against Him because God tells us to believe in Him! The accountablitiy comes in when we HEAR God's word. that's why jesus said; "If i had not spoken to you you would not be guilty." But now that we've heard God's message we become accountable. The price for not hearing God's word is life without him forvever. That is being beaten with FEW blows. But those who HAVE heard him and willfully rejected him, the price will be severe blows. That's why Jesus said; "He who is not for me is against me". That is true REGARDLESS of whether or not we know his words.

Haener

You thought I was making a genuine argument when all I did was kid around.

Anyway, like all preachers you're story is founded on the mere assumption that the bible is true. Sure, if jezus was the son of god then his words would be true and one could only be for or against him, if only because jezus said so. But, if the bible is not true (and large parts of it can be proven to be wrong), then the whole foundation of your story disappears into nothingness.

Go preach in your local mall!

Ovazor

I don't even understand what you mean by being FOR christ. You mean I'm voting for him?

No. I'm really indifferent, which in my case means I'm not interested.

And what about my question?

Jack the Bodiless

Salieri:

STOP.

Take several deep breaths.

Calm down.

Now read that again, and understand what you're claiming.
...Now, how does this make ANY sense?