Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Vinnie · 01-18-2005, 07:44 PM

I remember this post by CX:

Quote:

Recently I've been thinking about the actual manuscript evidence for the texts of the NT. What got me thinking about it was a rehash of the apologetic about 24,000 manuscripts all in perfect agreement as early as 30 years after the originals etc. etc. I'm not really interested in pursuing a discussion of that, but rather I'm wondering if anyone knows of a comprehensive summary outlining the percentages of the NT supported by manuscripts from various eras and text types. My preliminary observations are as follows:

Manuscripts prior to 200 C.E.:

P52 ca. 110-125 C.E. contains 7 partial verses of GJn

P90 2nd century contains 11 verses of GJn 3 of which overlap with P52

P98 Possibly 2nd Century conatins 7 verses of Revelation

Manuscripts from the turn of the 3rd century:

P46 ca. 200 C.E. contains partial to substantial copies of 9 Pauline epistles

P66 ca. 200 C.E. contains partial copy of GJn (more substantial than P52 or P90)

P77 ca. 2nd or 3rd century contains 9 verses of GMt (first attestation of this gospel outside church fathers)

Manuscripts from the 3rd century:

P1 GMt Partial
P4 GLk Partial (first attestation to this gospel)
P5 GJn Partial
P9 1Jn Partial
P12 Hebrews 1 verse
P15 1Cor 26 verses
P20 James 17 verses
P27 Romans Partial
P28 GJn 11 verses
P29 Acts 3 verses (first attestation for Acts)
P30 1Thess 4 verses & 2Thess 12 verses
P39 GJn 9 verses
P40 Romans Partial
P45 GMt-Acts (all partial; first attestation for GMk)
P47 Revelation Partial
P48 Acts 12 verses
P49 Ephesians Partial
P53 GMt 11 verses & Acts 11 verses
P65 1Thess Partial
P69 GLk 9 verses
P70 GMt Partial
P75 GLk Partial & GJn Partial
P80 GJn 1 verse
P87 Philemon 5 verses
P91 Acts 12 verses
P95 GJn 7 verses

So we have 3 MSS total prior to the 2nd century. 6 MSS total prior to/in the of beginning the 3rd century and 34 MSS total prior to the 4th century which are used for the current critical text.

Basically in the first 170 years or so after Jesus' death we have a grand total of about 3-6 very fragmentary copies of NT Texts representing as few as 22 verses total (for the 3 earliest MSS).

Note: The list for the 3rd century MSS is not exhaustive and includes only those cited by NA27

There is no complete version of the NT prior to Aleph in the 4th century. Has anyone ever done the math to see what the percentages actually are? Also has anyone ever analysed what parts, if any, of the NT are nowhere atttested until Aleph?

It seems all we have for the early years is external attestation....

Has Toto provided a valid mechanism for believing how later mss tradition could be unanimous on this Since its not unanimou on a host of other various readings I'm not sure how convincing it can ever be...

Vinnie

Toto · 01-18-2005, 07:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vinnie

. . . . Paul's letters were also collected by the end of the first century.

. . .

Sorry, they weren't. Marcion had a collection around 140, but that might have been the first. And we don't have that collection.

Walker states that the orthodox church around 180 was centralized enough to have controlled all of the existant copies, and could have standardized them.

Layman · 01-18-2005, 08:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Sorry, they weren't. Marcion had a collection around 140, but that might have been the first. And we don't have that collection.

Walker states that the orthodox church around 180 was centralized enough to have controlled all of the existant copies, and could have standardized them.

How do you know they weren't collected by the end of the first century? Clement of Rome seems to have known Galatians, Romans, and 1 Corinthians. Romans was written to Rome, so no big surprise there, but that he/they have copies of Galatians and 1 Corinthians seems to indicate a fair amount of circulation.

Ignatius knew of 1 Corinthians, Ephesians, and Galatians, though he may also have been aware of some other Pauline letter related to Ephesus.

Polycarp knew of lots of Paulines, including Philippians, Ephesians, Romans, and 1 & 2 Corinthians.

Marcion, as you point out, knew of most of the Paulines early second century as well.

These letters were widely circulated early. A circulation that had nothing to do with Marcion. Marcion is notable for taking a knife to the parts of the Paulines that were too "Jewish" for his particular heresy. He also prompted the church to clarify its own canon. But the books were already there and widely circulated.

Vinnie · 01-18-2005, 08:43 PM

I phrasedb myself poorly. Collections of some of Paul's letters were already being formed//used by the turn of the first century. From what I remember this is evidenced pretty well. I don't feel like hashing it here though. Maybe Layman will or if i get some more time this weekend. I'm having to much fun in the other forums and all my books are well packed till sometime in the beginning of March.

Vinnie

Amaleq13 · 01-18-2005, 10:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vinnie

Its good to have that info hany though so others can check it.

That's why I posted it, amigo. I assumed you knew where it was.

Toto · 01-19-2005, 01:03 AM

On pp 18-19 of his book, Interpolations in the Pauline Letters, Walker says:

Quote:

Similarly, in the other letters, serious questions have been raised regarding the authenticity of such passages as: 1 Cor . . . 15.3-11 [57] . . .

footnote 57 references Robert Price's article.

There is no separate discussion of this section, but it would not be unreasonable to think that Walker gives a lot of credit to Price's article, as his book endorses the idea that there are many such interpolations in the Pauline letters.

Yuri Kuchinsky · 01-19-2005, 04:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vorkosigan

[In regard to the following quote from Dr. Price:

"As for Iraq and such matters, it pains me that the Infidels are all such a bunch of naive Lefties!"]

Both adjectives are wrong. Where Price writes on the NT, he does so with insight and gusto. Where he writes on politics, he upchucks stereotyped, shallow Reich-Christian trash that any one of us could rebut unconscious with our hands behind our backs. I must say I find it incredible that someone who can see right through Paul takes George Bush at face value.

More from Dr. Price on the subject of Irag here,
http://www.robertmprice.mindvendor.com/mi_iraq.htm

Hi, Vork!

I wonder if Dr. Price is already beginning to feel ashamed about his war-mongering... I wonder when exactly in 2004 he wrote that?

The democracy is really exploding in Iraq now!

All the people are happy, and they just love Uncle Sam!

One needs to keep it in mind that Dr. Price had been a Christian fundamentalist once. The old habits are hard to break.

USA is a madhouse at this time IMO. The 2004 elections were obviously stolen. I'm pretty sure that at least 60% of the American voters voted Democrat.

There are more lies in American politics now than ever before. I've never seen it as bad as that...

Regards,

Yuri.

Clutch · 01-19-2005, 08:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yuri Kuchinsky

I wonder if Dr. Price is already beginning to feel ashamed about his war-mongering... I wonder when exactly in 2004 he wrote that?

And not just Price.

gregor2 · 01-19-2005, 08:24 PM

Yuri

Sure, sure, Dr. Price is really over the top.

But at least it's not like he's a nut believing some stolen national election, builder-burghers, illuminati, and NWO.

More lies in America today - sheesh. Why don't you read about the election of Jefferson versus Hamilton in 1800 and see about lies.

Amaleq13 · 01-19-2005, 08:41 PM

This is not the forum for political discussion. Please stick to the topic.

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01-18-2005, 08:43 PM	#14
Vinnie Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Waterbury, Ct, Usa Posts: 6,523	I phrasedb myself poorly. Collections of some of Paul's letters were already being formed//used by the turn of the first century. From what I remember this is evidenced pretty well. I don't feel like hashing it here though. Maybe Layman will or if i get some more time this weekend. I'm having to much fun in the other forums and all my books are well packed till sometime in the beginning of March. Vinnie

01-19-2005, 08:24 PM	#19
gregor2 Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: texas Posts: 86	Yuri Sure, sure, Dr. Price is really over the top. But at least it's not like he's a nut believing some stolen national election, builder-burghers, illuminati, and NWO. More lies in America today - sheesh. Why don't you read about the election of Jefferson versus Hamilton in 1800 and see about lies.

01-19-2005, 08:41 PM	#20
Amaleq13 Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Eagle River, Alaska Posts: 7,816	This is not the forum for political discussion. Please stick to the topic.

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