Originally Posted by outhouse

any attempt to tie josephas as a source for GMark has failed miserably due to the sheer imagination required to make it fly.

It disregards what is known about the earliest documents, and varied sources.

Originally Posted by aa5874

This is precisely what I find very disturbing. If one finds that there is literary dependence of gMark and Wars of the Jews then it is most basic that one should EXAMINE the other writings of Josephus BEFORE any attempt is made to date gMark on Wars of the Jews alone.

This is most fundamental in any serious inquiry. One cannot be Myopic.

Amazingly,the stories in gMark about John the Baptist, the execution of John the Baptist, the marriage of Herod to Herodias his brother's wife, the daughter of Herodias, the request for a head on a platter are ALL from the same 18th book of Antiquities written c 93 C3.

1.The only known 1st century source which mentions a character called John the Baptist is Antiquities of the Jews 18.3.5 by Josephus written c 93 CE.

2.The only known 1st century source to claim John the Baptist was executed by Herod is Antiquities of the Jews 18.3.5 written c 93 CE.

3.The only known 1st century source to mention that Herod married his brother's wife is Antiquities of the Jews 18.5 written c 93 CE.

4.A known source which claimed someone head was to be cut off is the very same Antiquities of the Jews 18.5. written 93 CE

5.The only known 1st century source which claimed Herodias had a Daughter is the saem Antiquities of the Jews 18.5. WRITTEN 93 CE.

6.The Only source which claimed a character called Jesus had a brother called James is Antiquities of the Jews 20.9.1 by Josephus written c 93 CE.

7. A 1st century source which mentions a trial by the Sanhedrin is Antiquities of the Jews 20.9.1 by Josephus written c 93 CE.

8. The Only known source in the 1st century to claim a character called Jesus was the leader of band of mariners and poor people is found in the Life of Flavius Josephus written sometime AFTER 93 CE.

9. The only known 1st century source to mention THREE CRUCIFIED and One survived is found in the Life of Flavius Josephus written sometime AFTER 93 CE.

There appears to be a literary dependence on all the writings of Josephus by the author of gMark.

The Preponderance of evidence do suggest gMark was written sometime AFTER all the writings of Josephus or AFTER C 93 CE.

Originally Posted by Duvduv

Even if there are similarities about Jesus son of Ananus and the NT Jesus, AND even if Josephus wrote about the Baptist, WHY would a gospel writer use these stories to create a backdrop for his gospel story unless he also had an idea about this time period and about the Baptist, which apparently GMark didn't know about?

Originally Posted by Toto

This theory is most closely associated with Theodore Weeden, who, as I said, is too distinguished to be bashed with charges of parallelomania.

If you search for Weeden in the archives, you will find some prior discussion, such as

Josephus Wars 6 5 3 , with contributions from Neil Godrey and others.

The Source for Jesus' Biography?

Originally Posted by outhouse

just do a search yourself for early versions of GMark

heck you can even use later scripture, it hasnt changed enough.

Originally Posted by la70119

Could that be because the critical passion chapters are missing?

If so, then it appears that it may have followed Slavonic Josephus, or just made it up (and put interpolations into Slavonic Josephus), for the earliest attestations to the crucifixion and who actually did it in the Early Fathers show clearly that:

Justin Martyr, I Apology 35
Lactantius, Divine Institutes IV.18 & 19
Gospel of Peter
Slavonic Josephus Jewish War Bk II

Except it would have to have been done prior to about 175 AD because that's when P75 showed up at the earliest, and it has what is recognizably gLuke's crucifixion account.

Originally Posted by outhouse

any attempt to tie josephas as a source for GMark has failed miserably due to the sheer imagination required to make it fly.

It disregards what is known about the earliest documents, and varied sources.

Originally Posted by Grog

What are the earliest documents going to show?

Originally Posted by outhouse

And...?

What does "reign supreme" mean? What do you know about oral tradition? We covered this ground before. And, to state the obvious, both Josephus and the author of gMark were literate. The incident with Jesus ben Ananias would have occurred at a time when Josephus was in Palestine.

]quote]with a simular background, you will have simular sources, YET what was recorded has major differences. its why no credible scholar finds josephas as gmarks source.

Originally Posted by outhouse

the further you go back the closer you get to the originals. gmark still didnt change that much with later additions.


You have a jewish roman author from the first century, and you have a jewish roman historian from almost the same time in a place where oral tradition reigned supreme over written literature due to the high illiteracy rates.

with a simular background, you will have simular sources, YET what was recorded has major differences. its why no credible scholar finds josephas as gmarks source.

NOT only that you are ignoring the gmark has the possibility for multiple sources.


have you read the wiki link on the gospel??

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_Mark

Most modern scholars believe that the gospel was written in Syria by an unknown Christian no earlier than AD 70, using various sources including a passion narrative (probably written), collections of miracles stories (oral or written), apocalyptic traditions (probably written), and disputations and didactic sayings (some possibly written).[5] Some of the material in Mark, however, goes back a very long way, representing an important source for historical information about Jesus.[5]