Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Agnostic Theist · 08-08-2004, 06:19 PM

How about the Golden Rule of Ethics? Pretty wise, eh?

Eh?

Riddick · 08-08-2004, 07:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vorkosigan

What are a few stunts with blind men, against a whole world of suffering? Pure torture -- as if he were saying "Ha! I could have cured you, but I chose not to!"

In any case, the miracles of Jesus are taken from OT models. See Helms, Randel. 1998. Gospel Fictions. Amherst, NY: Prometheus, or Brodie, Thomas L. 2000. The Crucial Bridge: the Elijah-Elisha Narrative as an interpretive
synthesis of Genesis-Kings and a literary model for the Gospels. Collegeville, MN: The Liturgical Press.

Thus, those miracles do not represent real-world events. They are simple Markan fictions taken up by the later authors.

Vorkosigan

Honestly, I don't know what the world population was when Jesus visited (0-33 A.D.). All I know is, he healed a lot of people. Not all of his healings are documented, the bible only records some of them.

I'm afraid I'm not impressed by the books you have an affinity for.

Amaleq13 · 08-08-2004, 08:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riddick

All I know is, he healed a lot of people. Not all of his healings are documented, the bible only records some of them.

And Paul mentions none. Kinda weird, huh?

stardog · 08-08-2004, 08:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riddick

Honestly, I don't know what the world population was when Jesus visited (0-33 A.D.). All I know is, he healed a lot of people. Not all of his healings are documented, the bible only records some of them.

I'm afraid I'm not impressed by the books you have an affinity for.

How do you know Jesus did miracles that were not documented? BTW, I am not impressed by the one book you hold so dear.

Vorkosigan · 08-08-2004, 09:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riddick

I'm afraid I'm not impressed by the books you have an affinity for.

Have you read them? Are you aware of Brodie's arguments?

Vorkosigan

inquisitive01 · 08-08-2004, 10:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pyrrho

While reading some posts in another thread, I started wondering why Jesus, as depicted in the canonical texts, is depicted as being so very stupid. After all, with the books written years after the events that they supposedly relate, one would think there would be plenty of time to dream up something better. Is it that his writers were simply idiots?

For an example of his stupidity (suggested by someone in the aforementioned thread), consider what he did to a fig tree that did not bear fruit:

Matthew 21:

18 Now in the morning as he returned into the city, he hungered. 19 And when he saw a fig tree in the way, he came to it, and found nothing thereon, but leaves only, and said unto it, Let no fruit grow on thee henceforward for ever. And presently the fig tree withered away. KJV

Mark 11:

11 And Jesus entered into Jerusalem, and into the temple: and when he had looked round about upon all things, and now the eventide was come, he went out unto Bethany with the twelve. 12 And on the morrow, when they were come from Bethany, he was hungry: 13 And seeing a fig tree afar off having leaves, he came, if haply he might find any thing thereon: and when he came to it, he found nothing but leaves; for the time of figs was not yet. 14 And Jesus answered and said unto it, No man eat fruit of thee hereafter for ever. And his disciples heard it. KJV

So much for his omniscience, as he did not know that the tree did not have figs, even though it was not the right season for it to have figs! Jesus didn't even know things that his contemporaries could easily know! And then, like a spoiled brat, he takes his aggression out on the tree!

This is the moron who millions worship as God! Can anything be more delightfully absurd?

Yeah. Assuming the millions were worshipping something absurd (that's your opinion, to which you are entitled), someone finding "delight" in that would seem to be even more absurd.

Why did you choose to omit Matthew 21:20-22, which follow right after Verses 18 & 19 (the reasoning of which is found in Verses 20-22, btw)?

From Mark 11, perhaps the fig tree was an illustration of the disappointment/disgust with what Jesus (in the Verses that follow those you listed) referred to as a "den of thieves" (what the temple had been turned into, according to Jesus).

It would likely be best to try not to leave out, or ignore, the Verses that accompany those Verses in question. If you asked someone to share the details with you about a 150-page short story they had just recently finished, surely you wouldn't want them to describe it based ONLY on the first 15 pages or so, would you?

breathilizer · 08-08-2004, 11:20 PM

Look people. I'm no apologist, but there is clearly a simple, raitonal, and perfectly good explanation for Jesus cursing the fig tree.

Jesus was drunk.

Hey hey hey... Don't get your panties in a bunch. It makes perfect sense. Haven't you ever been to a party where the babbling drunk bafoon walks up to a tree to fight it? I know I have, more than once even.

Face it: Drunk people don't like trees. Trees are stubborn. They budge for no one, not even God. Jesus turned water into wine... He's clearly an alcoholic if he's devoting his power to Irish Courage.

So in conclusion, Jesus got drunk, saw a tree, walked a long way to get to the tree, and then saw that he walked all that way for nothing and was going to have to walk all the way back. So in spite he said unto the tree, "Fuck you tree. I'm fuckin Jesus. No one makes a fool out of Jesus. You want some of this? Fuck you. Fuck- You-. No fruit for me, eh? No fruit for you!"

Toto · 08-09-2004, 12:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by inquisitive01

. . .
Why did you choose to omit Matthew 21:20-22, which follow right after Verses 18 & 19 (the reasoning of which is found in Verses 20-22, btw)?

. . .

How does that help your case?

20 When the disciples saw this, they were amazed. "How did the fig tree wither so quickly?" they asked.

21 Jesus replied, "I tell you the truth, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and it will be done. 22 If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer."

Now Jesus is telling his followers that their faith can override the laws of physics, and that they will get what they pray for.

When have you seen that happen? Jesus is speaking like a con artist here. "Just believe, and it will happen!" And then when it doesn't, he will tell you that your faith was lacking.

Not one of Jesus' better moments, frankly.

Agnostic Theist · 08-09-2004, 04:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by breathilizer

Look people. I'm no apologist, but there is clearly a simple, raitonal, and perfectly good explanation for Jesus cursing the fig tree.

Jesus was drunk.

Hey hey hey... Don't get your panties in a bunch. It makes perfect sense. Haven't you ever been to a party where the babbling drunk bafoon walks up to a tree to fight it? I know I have, more than once even.

Face it: Drunk people don't like trees. Trees are stubborn. They budge for no one, not even God. Jesus turned water into wine... He's clearly an alcoholic if he's devoting his power to Irish Courage.

So in conclusion, Jesus got drunk, saw a tree, walked a long way to get to the tree, and then saw that he walked all that way for nothing and was going to have to walk all the way back. So in spite he said unto the tree, "Fuck you tree. I'm fuckin Jesus. No one makes a fool out of Jesus. You want some of this? Fuck you. Fuck- You-. No fruit for me, eh? No fruit for you!"

I have been told of a guy two years my senior who took on a mirror and an oak tree.

To mirror: What you looking at? You ...king want some? *WHACK* ARGH! FUCK! You're not so fucking hard now are you!

To tree: Is that fucking tree looking at me? OI! You fucking looking at me! Think you're fucking hard do you?! *WHACK* SHITE! FUCK! Fucking sort you out you bastard.

And what does Jesus do? Kills the poor tree.

Jesus: Ye have given me no fruit

Tree: You never fucking asked!

inquisitive01 · 08-09-2004, 09:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by breathilizer

Look people. I'm no apologist, but there is clearly a simple, raitonal, and perfectly good explanation for Jesus cursing the fig tree.

Jesus was drunk.

Hey hey hey... Don't get your panties in a bunch. It makes perfect sense. Haven't you ever been to a party where the babbling drunk bafoon walks up to a tree to fight it? I know I have, more than once even.

Face it: Drunk people don't like trees. Trees are stubborn. They budge for no one, not even God. Jesus turned water into wine... He's clearly an alcoholic if he's devoting his power to Irish Courage.

So in conclusion, Jesus got drunk, saw a tree, walked a long way to get to the tree, and then saw that he walked all that way for nothing and was going to have to walk all the way back. So in spite he said unto the tree, "F### you tree. I'm f###in Jesus. No one makes a fool out of Jesus. You want some of this? F### you. F###- You-. No fruit for me, eh? No fruit for you!"

QUOTE: "Haven't you ever been to a party where the babbling drunk bafoon walks up to a tree to fight it? I know I HAVE, more than once even."

As stated earlier, Verses in Ephesians and elsewhere clearly state "Be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; instead, be filled with the spirit." For any other rational thinkers that might be lurking... no, "spirit" does not mean "spirits" (as in alcohol).

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08-08-2004, 06:19 PM	#41
Agnostic Theist Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: UK Posts: 4,822	How about the Golden Rule of Ethics? Pretty wise, eh? Eh?

08-08-2004, 11:20 PM	#47
breathilizer Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: San Antonio, TX Posts: 3,090	Look people. I'm no apologist, but there is clearly a simple, raitonal, and perfectly good explanation for Jesus cursing the fig tree. Jesus was drunk. Hey hey hey... Don't get your panties in a bunch. It makes perfect sense. Haven't you ever been to a party where the babbling drunk bafoon walks up to a tree to fight it? I know I have, more than once even. Face it: Drunk people don't like trees. Trees are stubborn. They budge for no one, not even God. Jesus turned water into wine... He's clearly an alcoholic if he's devoting his power to Irish Courage. So in conclusion, Jesus got drunk, saw a tree, walked a long way to get to the tree, and then saw that he walked all that way for nothing and was going to have to walk all the way back. So in spite he said unto the tree, "Fuck you tree. I'm fuckin Jesus. No one makes a fool out of Jesus. You want some of this? Fuck you. Fuck- You-. No fruit for me, eh? No fruit for you!"

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