PDH5204

Boomeister:

Uh, why do you think that Jesus was "pro religious war?" Are you claiming that Rome would not have reacted rather violently, i.e., with the sword, with respect to those followers of his who truly lived his message [and thus refused to compromise or make peace with the evil represented by Rome]? Or should I ask, just how many practitioners of non-violence were met with violence when they insisted on equality, etc.? Or more simply, how many civil rights workers did we have to bury? So, yes, he did not come to bring peace but a sword.

I otherwise don't think that many Jews would have a problem with the sabbath being made for man and not man for the sabbath. Oh, and by the way, since there is no report of "and evening was and morning was, for a day seven," it is still for a day seven, a sabbath holy to the Lord.

Re things coming out. I suppose that depends on one's value judgment[s]. Since you don't believe, no surprise that you're not all that worried about what impact your here and now might have on the later and after death. I otherwise do not think that you can equate the statement in question with your report that Jesus did not care about good hygeine. One would think that his washing the feet of some would have disabused you of that notion, but I suppose that I now stand corrected.

Re the "I am." Either he isn't in which case you are right, or he is in which case you are something more than greatly mistaken.

Uncaring of grief? Please read: "Therefore, when Jesus saw her weeping, and the Jews who came with her weeping, He groaned in the spirit and was troubled." So you were saying something about his being uncaring of grief?

Boomeister

If Jesus is God and he said he is bringing a sword rather than peace, how would you interpret it?
I don't have a problem with the sabbath statement, but it is unique to Jesus, is it not? Not everything I type is anti-Jesus. I was just answering the OP.
You are putting words in my mouth. I do not think my actions do not have an impact. I know that if I do or say something that infringes on the rights of others, I go to jail or I lose their frienship, etc. etc. It's called consequences. So, I'm not sure why you think I don't worry about that.
Again, I'm not being anti-Jesus here.
It is curious that he ate his food without washing his hands, in this example, and turned it around to be a lesson about what we say. If someone asks me, hey why didn't you wash your hands? I wouldn't go into a speech about their actions. It is an odd response. And it doesn't seem like Jesus cared too much about hygiene in this example. Not to say that he didn't always care about hygiene, but in this example it was irrelevant to him. There were no antibiotics in those days to cure whatever bacterial infections can happen by eating without washing your hands. I know, I know, Jesus is God, and he is safe from infections, but what about his disciples that were with him? They weren't immune from it.

Yes, uncaring of grief. He told the man who had a relative who died and was concerned about burying him to "let the dead bury their dead" and to follow him. Follow him where exactly, I don't know. He also advocated for people to leave their families to follow him. Just because you can provide counter-examples does not mean he didn't sometimes have a mean-spiritedness about him. So, he was sometimes caring, sometimes uncaring. I can go along with that.

"I am the way"...well, we'll have to agree to disagree on that one.

Boomygrrl

Vorkosigan

Few Jews had a problem with that, PDH. It was a standard Jewish saying, found in the rabbinical sources and in the history of the Maccabees (and in Enoch, as I recall). The writer of Mark didn't know any better, or perhaps did, but was making some other point with his little fiction. You should also note that the point about the Sabbath being made for men occurs in Mark 2:27, which quite a number of exegetes see as an interpolation (it is omitted in Mt and Lk, who copied Mark).

Vorkosigan

Chris Weimer

WOW! Did Jews ever have a problem with it. You should read more into the DSS and Biblical interpretation, even rescuing a lamb from a pit was forbidden on the Sabbath.

Alf

The "our father" prayer is more sign of bring created by a cult or sect as a common prayer which they said when they met together for their religious meetings.

The words spoken by Jesus and actions performed by Jesus does appear to come from either OT or "wisdom of the day".

Old testament - the feeding of the multitude, most of his life and death as reported in the Gospel appears to be more or less directly taken from OT. He was of David's lineage because Issiah's prophecy says as much. He was born of a virgin because any God-like being had to be born by a virgin and because christians misread the prophecy to mean he was born by a virgin.

I.e. he must have done this or said that or have this origin etc because the OT says so. It isn't that he must be a fullfilment of the prophecy because the facts of his life fit with OT's proephecy.

The other source is regular wisdom of the day. I would guess many people saw something was wrong with the Sabbath and the way it was practiced, so they put those words into Jesus mouth. Also, christians changed the day of rest from Sabbath to Sunday, they might have placed those words into his mouth as a way to give argument to their moving of the holy day from Sabbath to Sunday.

Even the "I did not come to bring peace but to bring sword" appear to be more a comfort to someone experiencing the religious fighting that went on in the early years of christianity before it became the empire's religion.

The question is - can we identify ANYTHING which is NOT from OT and NOT general wisdom of the day? As I can see from the answers to my challenge the answer is no.

In short, we have absolutely NOTHING that is clearly original Jesus phrases.

Alf